pstevens

TKD will not work for people because of several reasons:

1. They've made up their mind that it's useless.

2. They lack the physical ability to perform its techniques.

3. They're in the wrong martial art.

Basically, you can apply formula to any martial art. Not everyone who joins a boxing gym will be able to box (I've witnessed this personally). Granted TKD has been made "consumer friendly" to serve communities, if willing any person can make things work. The constant bickering of individuals regarding styles is really their own failure to realize their own fault. If something's not working for you, then move on. That's why we have brands. Martial arts is a commodity, we can choose whatever suits our lifestyle.

BJJ has already begun to follow the TKD model... In fact, it itends to follow the TKD model. Rickson himself has said this. The simple truth is all arts become watered down as it becomes widespread and the only way to do if efficiently is at a professional level.

SimonM

You know TKD is not my favorite MA in the world but do you actually have a cohesive point? Because I missed it. I just saw a bunch of circular logic statements:

eg: And gross generalizations:

Not exactly a convincing argument.

Broadsword2004

TKD will work fine if you can do it right. Kicking in TKD is the same pretty much as in karate. The front kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks, etc...are all the same, except TKD has all sorts of fancy names for each and every kick. But if you are strong and can kick hard, it doesn't matter what art you call it, it'll hurt a person.

The TKD seen in the Olympics isn't the TKD you'll see someone use in a streetfight (if they're smart).

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zhorner

the title should be why tkd doesn't work in the USA. As much as i hate to admit it, i am sure their are dozens of little asian men running around korea ready to kick the shit out of idiots like me.

the real reason most TKDers are complete mullets is the same reason they started taking tkd in the first place.......they are non-athletic sissies. these little cry babies run home from school and embarrass daddy. so he goes and puts little lance, (obviously the most homo-erotic male name their is), in good ol' dragon kim's tkd academy. he chose to place him in tkd because their are only 3,265,156 tkd dojos or gyms per square mile of most large cities. little lance finally earns his black belt by breaking 2 hollow bricks or whatever, and is automatically a bad ass. WRONG. so mr. black belt potato-head runs his mouth off to some street fighter or ballerina and gets destroyed in front of his friends........tkd gets a bad rep and you have ass holes like me telling you how bad it sucks.

so, is it the techniques and the MA itself that sucks, or just the whiney kids and overweight women?????????????????????

bodhisattva

Tae Kwon Do does NOT work right if you do it right.

There is no way to do Tae Kwon Do "right".

It is Wrong.

And I am not trying to be a jerk, honest. I tras a fighting artuly, in my heart, believe TKD as a fighting art - is wacko.

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pstevens

I sense a lot of resentment... You got beat by TKD. Puahahahaha....

bodhisattva

Genius. This guy, he's a genius.

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SimonM

What Bodhisattva and pstevens were rather inarticulately trying to say is that Taekwondo too frequently has little SD benefit. This is largely because of this:

Particularly the complete omission of grappling from TKD competition and the avoidance of face contact are problematic. Many gyms train SPECIFICALLY with this form of sport competition in mind. The problem is that although pugilistic sports (such as WTF Tae Kwon Do sparring) may look like fighting it can sometimes actually train bad habits such as avoiding face contact and an inability to handle grappling attacks - attacks that TKD stylists with their long, high kicks can be particularly vulnerable to. Now where I differ vehemently from Bodhisattva and pstevens is that I don't believe that this makes WTF Tae Kwon Do BAD just not SD oriented. Also I recognize that not every Tae Kwon Do school is instructing students in WTF sparring rules and those that do not may be able to construct viable SD material.

bodhisattva

It's called a MARTIAL ART. If it doesn't teach people to control their own weight and space effectively, then that is FALSE ADVERTISING.

And false advertising, especially regarding a product that is intended for self-preservation, is BAD.

If it were a weapon instead of an art, you would have no problem seeing this fact. For instance, if I sold you a gun for a great deal of money, but in truth, it doesn't fire at all, then you would understand that to be BAD. You would have no question. The gun was purchased to protect you, I sold it to you, claiming it works well. In truth, the poorly constructed gun is a rotten tool for defense. If you were killed trying to defend yourself with it, you would have every right to be enraged (except that you would be dead..I guess..)

It is ony unclear because everyone wants to say "Our ways are different, but yours is fine." I am not saying others should do it my way, at all. But I am saying, very clearly, TKD is one of the worlds most backwards, screwed up fighting methods out there.

But it is a GREAT form of Yoga, in my opinion - and very beautiful.

If they start calling it a "looks like fighting but doesn't work" art, then I will cease having a problem with it.

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Broadsword2004

Screw the rules of Tae Kwon Do. That's the sport. I'm talking about the moves, the fighting art itself. It teaches you to kick. It teaches you to punch. You get into a fight with someone who doesn't know what they're doing and kick them hard with a rounhouse kick, provided you're in good physical condition and a solid kicker, and they'll be hurt. A side kick is a side kick. You side kick someone hard in the gut, it hurts. Even if it is a trained martial artist, it still does some damage (the body isn't built for such hard hits).

You go up against a boxer, if you're a skilled kicker who can kick hard, you kick the boxer square in the side of the shoulder with the ball of your foot and you can injure the boxer. They may be able to absorb the blows of punches to the shoulder from other boxers or fighters, but you use the ball of your foot and use a hard roundhouse kick and you'll hurt that shoulder badly; it is full of nerves. On Joe Schmoe, it'll hurt badly (though I wouldn't recommend kicking that high).

You kick someone hard on the inside of their thigh, and likely if it's Joe Schmoe, their leg muscle will spasm.

Punching is punching. Karate, TKD, etc...they have their own punches, but they in the end borrow from boxing when they need to be used effectively, punching-wise. So whatever there. But the kicking part of TKD is plenty effective if used properly.

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bodhisattva

With bad kicking strategy. A) it teaches kicks that are worthless when fighting and B) it teaches people to kick at the WRONG time. The BEST time to kick in an altercation is after you have scored the man hard with a good punch. TKD teaches to kick as an opening to punching. "Kick when far away, then step into punching range after landing a kick" basically.

And that is absolute nonsense. It makes sense to the mind, but it gets the body pounded.

Again, Poorly. It makes a person a "shoulder puncher" which is the weakest way to punch. Also, the "recoil at the hip" thing is ridiculous. It is true, even in boxing, many expert fighters would let their hands drop in the ring.. but that is not what you teach beginners to do. As they say at the gym: when you are as good as Sugar-Ray Leonard, you can drop your hands...for now, keep em up high. TKD punching is nonsense.

First off, you get in a fight with someone who doesn't know what they are doing, and I HOPE TO GOD you can kick their ass : martial arts is not the art of getting good enough to beat up the clumsy, weak and unskilled. Secondly, hit anyone with a well-placed, hard, solid round kick is going to hurt, even if they are great fighters - they don't even need be clumsy! Thirdly, YOU GOTTA LAND THAT KICK FIRST, baby. If you can't hit a guy with it, it won't hurt him (see number 2, for further explanation). TKD does not teach their students to set up the kicks properly against guys who don't fight TKD style..


Yes. It does. Gotta land it first. THEN it hurts. In that order. If it doesn't land, it doesn't hurt. You gotta set it up right to land it against an opponent, unless you are fighting the clumsy, weak, and unskilled. I hope you aren't.

Boxer's tear kickers up. It's been proven so many times. They even have a KICK MINIMUM for kickboxing fights.. because no one wants to kick much. Just close the space and knock him out. It really does work that way, I am not kidding you.

Your entire body, believe it or not, is full of nerves. Kick it just about anywhere with the ball of your foot, and it's going to hurt. Gotta be able to set it up to land it, however.


Why are you suggesting it only hurts on Joe, and why kick Joe anyway? He's a pretty good guy, and besides, he's clumsy, weak, and unskilled.


Yes. And if you practice TKD, expect Joe to then beat you up, regardless of how many kata you have memorized for teacher.


I think TKD is not effective. Saying "It teaches punching" and then saying "It borrows from boxing to punch effectively" is simply contradictory.. If you study Muay Thai, you will find that there are more effective ways to kick than in TKD. I have also heard Savate has some good kicks, but I have never studied savate.
But you are on the right track. Keep checking out boxing, and keep thinking about how they do things. You will come to your own conclusions.

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pstevens

Don't worry guys, Bohdi has a false sense of logic, so it really shouldn't surprise anyone. Basically, his entire argument is based on the idea that one must land the kick first... Well, that can pretty much be applied to anything. If a boxer can't land a punch... If a wrestler can't get the takedown, etc... Granted kicking is harder to land than punching in general, it's been done effectively and consistently.

Also, I haven't seen any TKD guys using shoulder punches in live sparring. Most people like to associate WTF competitions with they way TKD people fight/spar... Not true. I've done WTF. The only reason the hands are down is for that specific event. I do Sport BJJ now, as well as MMA/NHB - And the analogy is the same. Sport BJJ isn't going to cut it in MMA with punching and kicking allowed, but I wouldn't expect all sport BJJ'ers to ignore the opportunity to lay someone out with a kick or punch in a real fight.

Martial arts cannot compensate for all the variables of a real fight, they're just tools to build on... You just have to use what works for you.

bodhisattva

Not logic. I started out a TKD fighter. I had to give it up after years of practice, because it doesn't work.

It's an argument from experience, a much different thing altogether from an argument from logic.

And I don't disagree with all of your points. But I do disagree that TKD is a viable martial art, as commonly practiced in the US. That's all I'm saying, nothing more, nothing less.

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pstevens

I started out with TKD too and it didn't meet all my needs, so I took what worked for me and moved on. For other people it may be a different story, that's all I'm saying.

I can agree with you on one thing: There's no such thing as a complete martial art and some styles have a better delivery system than others. That's why MMA is recognized as a proving ground - it combines aspects of the most effective MA's.

TKDTyger

Well I have read all the posts here in this forum and I am surprised that the defense for the usefulness of TKD was not better represented. First and foremost, I read that bodhi started as a TKD fighter. From the examples you posted, it seemes to me you had a bad instructor or master. Yes they teach to use kicks as a first attack. However they teach you to use simple roundhouse (TKD term) only. Spinning kicks and jumping kicks are for wide open targets. Now with that said, I have been training for a long time and I can guarentee that my kicks will outrach any punch and no matter where I kick you, it will stagger you. I have kicked people in the chest with them wearing a chest guard and through my shin guards and still broke sternums. I have cracked forearms from my oppenents who decide they will try and "take" my kick. In TKD they teach you to "move" and not to block as blocking can cause extra unneeded damage or injury. TKD teached timing and heavy heavy counter attacks. Granted you can not expect to use Olympic Style Sparring in a street fight, but rest assured, the kicks are easily modified for whatever purpose is needed at the time. Kicks to the knees, tail bone, and kidneys. Thge lower the kick, the more power can be generated and with that spped will increase. We practice and learn to take hits from a kick, back kick, roundhouse, side kick..... Any Kick. I personally do not know anyone who punches harder than a trained Martial Artist. So doing this kind of training hardends the core and therefore makes us more tolerant to strikes. There is no law in TKD that says you must use "high, showboaty" kicks. In competion, sure you can use them because we know our oppentents will not be swinging, but will be kicking back. Now if we can dodge the speed of trained martial artist kicks, what makes it so hard to dodge fists. Like I said earlier, you can rush a TKD person all you want, but expect a sharp cracking and buckling sensation from your knee and whatever you do, do not lose you balance. TKD is the only formal training that I have done, and I am not biased towards TKD, but it has a bad rap that I want to see stopped. Perhaps people need to understand the difference between sparring and fighting with the TKD Martial Art before they crap on it.