new_guy

Hi folks,

Please, first of all, I don't want this to turn into another retarded "my style can kick your style's ass" debacle. I believe all arts deserve respect and anyone who achieves his or her potential in their chosen art is a hero.

OK, here goes. I started studying Muay Thai a few months back. I chose MT because It's a beautiful art in it's traditional and purest form, effective, straight forward. Another reason I chose it over all other arts is the emphasis on conditioning as I'm a conditioning fanatic.

So anyway, my school changed curriculum and blended MT into a self defense program invented by the school director. Quality, pure MT instruction is hard to come by where I live. As a result, I started looking at other styles and am totally impressed by the TKD olympic sparring I saw, very inspiring. I'd love to work my way up to that style of sparring. I can also see where TKD may almost be as intense with conditioning as MT. I am considering a switch. . . . . not committed to the change, but I am open to checking out another option.

Now, here's where I put myself at risk of making enemies on the TKD board, which is NOT my intention. Reputation has it that many TKD schools are watered down, I believe the term many use is "mcdojo". Where I live, there is a TKD school on every block it seems!

My question is this: How does a prospective TKD student pick a quality school with quality instruction and avoid McDojo syndrome? Which organizations should I look toward (ATA? ITF? WTF?) and which ones should I avoid. Or are the best schools NOT affiliated at all? What questions should I ask? What do I look for?

Insight? Opinions? Wisdom? I welcome yours.

Tom Yum

Stick with muaythai.

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.

JStinson

First of all, I am biased to the Korean arts, I have been in them for 25 years. But I will say this, shop around. Most schools will let you try out the class for a time or two to see if you like it. I also would have to say your comment about Tae Kwon Do schools being watered down is correct, not many good TKD instructors around anymore, I was fortunate to be taught the pre sporting art. Nothing wrong with big organizations, if you can afford them. My opinion is to not worry about associations or organizations, just look for a good instructor that is in the realm of what you might be looking for.

Things to ask for, well, what are you interested in learning? Sport, self defense, traditional, modern??? Ask for the instructors background and rank. In my opinion, you want at least a 4th dan that has been teaching for at least 10 years. Not a 4th dan that started martial arts 5 years ago. Ask about contracts, fees, and extra fees (testing, gear, uniforms, etc.) Some have lots of extra hidden fees that add up to lots of money (especially the larger organizations.)

Lastly, don't worry about others perception of you. Take the art you want and be open minded and listen to your instructor(s), they may give you valuable information, if you listen to it.

J Stinson
Stinson's Korean Martial Arts Academy

Piston

Train both, if you can. I think you will find the ITF style a little more your cup of tea as they have greater emphasis on the use of fists than the WTF, its a little closer to MT, not sure about the ATA. I'm personally considering cross training in MT or karate or Wing Chun or boxing to help me learn to control close range, no MT or boxing gyms where I live though... D:

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyBr7ZdwnPo Woman hitting pimp gets beat down - karma baby!
http://www.comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=1623
Wonderful set of knockouts!
Love your BOB http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2363831283

new_guy

Thanks for the replies, folks.

Tom Yum: I would stick with Muay Thai if there was still a qualified school in my area that taught the pure form of MT. But my schools curriculum likes to change.

Jstinson: Lots of good info, thanks. Here is a question: There is a school run by an 8th degree black belt. He started in Korea and his list of qualifications and experience seems extensive. On his schools website he says "At Most schools it takes at least six years to acheive a black belt, but because of our superior training, you can earn yours in three" -- Is this a red flag? Or, could it be a legitimate claim?

GranFire

(I got mine in 2 ^_^)

I probably caters to the cash cow of the business: People who want that Black Belt to say they have it and as soon as they put that first hitch into the knot they are out of there...somebody has to pay the bills I guess.

Personally the belt color is not as important to me. The training is. Of course it sounds conceded 'we are so superior'.... He might just have bumped up the test frequency...

Edited to add:
However, when you go to try out a new place, keep them ears peeled for the undertones, subtle or other wise:
One of out Black Belts went to try a class with the Yoshika guy 'next door' and got some static like "we make real contact here...he was a jerk, belittling the previous MA experience. No matter what, if he is the last Dojo on earth I wouldn't pay him any money.

__________________

Banner by www.fiveancestors.com

http://itatigerforum.proboards103.com/


*It's not the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog*

kuk sool won

Yup, pretty much the only solution is to shop around. Doesn't matter what others perceptions of the art or school you are training in, its basically what you beleive in that counts, if you think that the school seems legitimate and more importantly trains in the areas which you consider most relevant then go ahead and join, you take out of martial arts what you want, you like conditioning so check about and see who's classes seem toughest. Have a chat with the instructors and see where their aims and ambitions for the classes lay, and hey, if you don't like it you can leave (whatever you do do not sign a contract that keeps you there for a duration longer than a month).

__________________

Tom Yum

If you've got a muaythai background, you can teach yourself how to throw TKD-style kicks.

Add on the front snap kick, snap roundhouse, side kick, hook kick, spinning back kick, spinning wheel kick and axe kick.

These are most of the kicks you will see in full-contact TMA fighting or TKD. The only thing you'll need is someone to show you when to use these kicks. If you've already done a good deal of sparring, it'll come fast to you.

If you're looking for more self-defense type work - look into hapkido, hwarangdo, tukong musool, kuk sool won and even some tang soo do schools.

Lastly, look at the white belts in each school and watch their techniques. If you've got experience, you can look at them and see if the techniques they are learning are readily useable. If not, you may find yourself going through the motions and paying for belts until you move up to higher level material.

Best of luck.

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.

JStinson

If a school advertises they can get you to a black belt in X amount of years, watch out. Everyone trains and progresses at a different pace, anything less than 4 years is bull. Avoid contracts period, most of the ones with contracts are doing that to keep people in the school instead of teaching good technique to keep the students there.

When you go to a school, don't just look at the white belts, look at the black belts, if they are fumbling around, hit the door. Be weary of the instructor, ask them about their rank and their certifications, if they cannot show you, they are probably not legit. You can always tell how hard an instructor trained by how hard he trains his students.

Sorry, I don't agree with teaching yourself TKD kicks. I have had numerous people come through my door that have been "self trained," they all looked pretty much the same, awful. You need the advice of a professional to show you the mechanics of the kick to get maximum effectiveness with minimum effort. That come only from people with an understanding of the techniques. A front kick looks simple from the untrained eye, but the body mechanics involved are quite complex.

Lastly, go out and find every school you can within an area you find comfortable to drive 2-4 days a week. Some don't have enough time to drive 40 miles each way for classes that many days a week. Try each one out for a week or two, don't make any commitments and don't give in to the pressure sales pitch.

Good luck, hope this helps and feel free to ask me anything you want.

J Stinson
Stinson's Korean Martial Arts Academy

eXcessiveForce

well if you like Olympic sparring then WTF is where you will do most of that. ATA also offers olympic sparring but not every instructor offers it.

I prefer the ATA system to WTF and ITF. But it is a personal preference thing.

Also it completely depends on the instructor who will be teaching. Hard to find quality instruction in any of the systems now a days.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

Tom Yum

True.

You are correct, sir. I forgot to mention that not all white belts are beginners in the martial arts - so checking out the black belts are even more important.


It depends. I think those who already have a good deal of experience in one system, can self-train in another system that is slightly different.

For example, I think it would be easier for a 1st dan in shotokan karate to learn TKD on his own, especially if he's competed against them. He already has a good grasp of body mechanics and balance.

I agree, that self-training is bad for those who do not have experience and that usually their techniques are sloppy or lack power.

Bowing to your experience here.

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.

JStinson

People often think they can self teach, and one can to an extent. Let's say someone wants to learn how to do a certain spinning kick. They can go get a book and see about 3-4 pictures of the kick and read about 5-6 sentences on the kick. Not plausible. They can watch someone do this at a tournament or on a video, fine, but are you sure your balance, timing, foot placement, angle of attack, body placement, center of gravity, (do I need to go on) is correct??? The mechanics of one style is not the same across the board in another art. Chung Do Kwan was invented by a student of Shotokan, so they should look similar, somewhat yes, but the philosophy of the motion is different which means they are not the same.

I myself do not attempt to do a new technique without seeking the advice of someone superior to me that know the intricate details of the movement. To many people think they can just learn to do anything and then pass it off as true martial arts then teach this to other students. This is why 90% of martial art schools promote sorry students that do not know proper technique. What will martial arts look like 5 generations from now. I am doing my best to teach as I have been taught and instill into my students the importance to keep martial arts true and not teach gymnastics and weak sport techniques.
Sorry, stepping down from the soapbox.
J Stinson

Tom Yum

That's great, sir. I'm glad that you teach your students the real deal, rather than gymnastics and weak point-sparring techniques. If I ran a martial arts school, I would feel the same way.

Another reason why schools promote students with sloppy technique also has to do with the business side of operating an MA school and the trade off of collecting fees vs. making better students in the long run.

Learning from videos alone is not a substitute for expert instruction, but it can give you an idea of how to do the technique if you have previous experience. And as you've pointed out, you can come across stylistic differences.

I would recommend against someone without any experience to try and learn any martial art system with a video.

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.

JStinson

Yes, true. These schools are very common, but the funny thing is they come and go. The traditional schools that promote quality black belts will stay around.

As for the self teaching, I can see we will just agree to disagree. By the way, are you self taught?

__________________
J Stinson
Stinson's Korean Martial Arts Academy
Glasgow, KY

Tom Yum

True.

95% of what I've learned has been through an instructor in either a class or privates.

The remainder has been through picking up some new stuff on my own, then eventually taking it to someone who can work with it.

__________________

Love it, leave it or fix it.