HapkidoTKD

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the minor variations that instructors have in the various Palgues and Taekeuk forms. It seems to me that various instructors are always pointing out slight differences in their own teaching of the forms. Variations such as inside out or outside in forearm blocks, Arm crossing differences and even transitions between stance. I have changed instructors several times over the years and get pretty tired of it. What do you folks think. I'm sure some of you have encountered the same problems.

GranFire

Well, I guess it depends on the style.

We follow a set rule, all schools in our organization do.

The cross for the blocks is set, as well as hand position, inner and outer forearm blocks are not interchangeable...enough to make you rip your hair out I know.

So we only have minor differences in forms, mostly depending on how much the instructor is interested in forms vs sparring.

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micro-ice

same as above only minor differences such as outside block changed to inside block and turning kicks to side kicks but thats about the only variations we would encounter in froms from the different instructors in our organisation

JStinson

Biggest reaon instructors change forms is the simple fact they forget. Sometimes, in the case of the forms I did, they get changed at the level of the inventor, Gen Choi, and the changes do not get to the smaller schools for some time, or never.

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tkddad

That's something I've been giving a lot of thought to lately. How to make forms consistent through an entire association? Even if you take 10 students and teach them exactly right and they do it the exact same way, then have those 10 teach 10 more. and so on. Even two levels down with excellent pupils and teachers you're going to have inconsistency. Of course you can have the original teacher review everyone but after the gross number gets too high that becomes impossible. Forget getting it to work in an association of 1000's just a couple of hundred in a school and you can see things start to break down.

You can publish a video but then you have to deal with each person's interpretation of what they see or don't see.

I don't think this used to be much of a problem because the segmentation in Korea were segmented into the different Kwans and the differences just meant you were from a different kwan. Well put that on a mass scale of all the different schools out there today and it's a wonder any of the forms are even identifiable.

GranFire

That's where testings and tournaments in front of different instructors as judges comes to play.

I guess it's one advantage of a micro organized organization....

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eXcessiveForce

There are also modifications to increase functionality.

For instance the crossing of the arms in an X shape before blocking is an awful habit. It is tactically unsound as it traps both hands. One need only get a hand on the outer hand and push it to the body and both hands are now locked up and the other person has a hand free.

Inner and outer forearm use should be determined on body position and technique that follows. I can't say why someone would change them though.

transition between stances ( if you mean foot work) can be stylistic, sliding movements, sliding crescent movements, or straight forward stepping) Each one has an idea behind it so it depends on what the instructor has decided be agrees with more. For instance I am opposed to sliding the foot for many reason, I prefer the fast stepping forward to the new stance.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

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HapkidoTKD

What about a web site that describes each form / movement as follows:

Head movement.
Upper body / shoulders movement
Torso movement
Arm(s) movement before block / strike
Arm(s) movement executing block / strike
Hip(s) / Leg(s) movement
Leg(s) movement before strike / kick

List of variations found from other known movements.

It would take some real work but I have thought about starting one begining with Palgue 1-8 and then Taeguek 1-8.

GranFire

Nope, I don't have that wiggle room

Where the foot goes, which way to turn the hands while crossing arms, which way to cross them, even the speed of the technique...

The only wiggle room is on how much emphasis the Instructor puts on the form and how anal he/she gets about it. (or if you let the munchkins get away with stuff.... )

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eXcessiveForce

I guess my question would be why bother?

Forms are for practice just like long drills. As long as the movements and techniques are sound and the combinations flow properly, does it really matter if there are a few variations.

The question is, which variations lead to the best execution and functionality of the material.

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If you must use force, make it excessive.

GranFire

If you freeform form - why bother...

I am not even begin to believe I understand why the higher ups do what they are doing...I am sure they have a reason...

The forms flow reasonably well, the differences between the techniques is clear, so my arsenal gets stocked while I am still learning to walk.

Then as I get more sure footed I get to make up my own (Besides, crossing arms does it even have a practical approach? Besides exercising your range of motion in a low impact way?)


It's a mental thing for me: Keep the ever more complex forms together, while not forgetting to breath, keep me focused (because if I get distracted, I forget where I am) It's the compulsory, before I get to play with sparring and board breaking I have to do my homework.

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eXcessiveForce

As far as I know, crossing your arms is only good for getting you knocked out.

I'm not suggesting freeform forms, I'm suggesting that over time you will refine it, and eventually the form itself is not nearly as important as the technique and the combinations.

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ALs92RSand78TA

I can see and have seen variations in forms between organizations and instructors. It seems to me that the more organized the organization is the less variation you will see between instructors within it. In these organizations changes are developed and planned out then taught to instructors which in turn teach them to the students. The better this process is the more unified the students' technique are.

Also, there are some movements, like crossing arms, that are not practical in a real application but I can see where the full technique practiced in forms improves the end result used during sparring.

bmcgonag

I have studied under several different instructors, associations, federations etc. throughout my career. I have done Taeguek, Palgwe, and whatever ATA does...only with them for 6 months when I was young, but a totally different form set.

And each association, federation has their own take on the forms, then each instructor has his or her own take on the forms, and then there are changes made that don't get filtered down....so basically there is no way to unify the form-sets without starting from scratch, and completely micro-managing every person who learns them.

I have the luxury currently that the 4th dan I teach with is not so concerned with the fact that my movements do not match his movements exactly. He realizes that I learned from someone else, and those techniques show through.

Just as I realize that his students will always want to do it his way. I catch more flack from correcting something on them because that's not what Master Paul said.

I just let it go, and ask them to do it my way during my class, try to keep an open mind about the differences, and learn to decide for themselves what may be more effective or less effective for each of them individually.

Don't get too frustrated over it, just roll with the changes, and do what you do.

Best,

Brian

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eXcessiveForce

ATA does the songahm forms, which were codified by the forms creator. The Way Encyclopedia version of the songahm forms is the correct version.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.