combining organizational forms

**JStinson** · 08-08-2007 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by dodgeduckdodge

Why would you say that so-called WTF forms are just recreations of the ITF forms?

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All you have to do is 1) look at them, just modifications in the stances and 2)look at the people who made the forms, they practiced another set before they come up with them. They got ideas from the earlier sets to make the "new" sets. The forms were not culminations of decades of work, they were done in a short time. That tells me they had a template to go by.

When it comes to organizations and forms, even the same form set is done differently in each organization. There is no set standard for them. Some instructors forget some of the parts of the form, some change them to fit their wants and some try to recreat them. This takes tradition and shoves it out the door. This is one of the reasons I quit doing TKD at the organization level and just concentrate on Hapkido, no forms!!!!

**dodgeduckdodge** · 08-08-2007 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by JStinson

All you have to do is 1) look at them, just modifications in the stances and 2)look at the people who made the forms, they practiced another set before they come up with them. They got ideas from the earlier sets to make the "new" sets. The forms were not culminations of decades of work, they were done in a short time. That tells me they had a template to go by.

When it comes to organizations and forms, even the same form set is done differently in each organization. There is no set standard for them. Some instructors forget some of the parts of the form, some change them to fit their wants and some try to recreat them. This takes tradition and shoves it out the door. This is one of the reasons I quit doing TKD at the organization level and just concentrate on Hapkido, no forms!!!!

The Palgwe, Yudanja/Kodanja and Taegeuk Poomsae did not come from the Chang Hon Hyungs.

As a matter of fact.........

From the 1940's up to the creation of the Palgwe and Dan Poomsae in 1965-67, all the Kwans of that era used the Pyong Ahn and related Dan Hyungs. No Kwan's except Oh Do Kwan used their newly created Chang Hon set (along side the Pyong Ahns).

Oh Do Kwan had only one member on the Poomsae Committee that created the Palgwe, Dan and Taegeuk Poomsae and he had not even completely learned the few existing - and newly created Chang Hon Hyungs at that time. His practice for over 15 years was with the Pyong Ahn and related Dan Hyungs.

However, regardless of historical fact, all we have to do is look at the Taegeuk Poomsae, done by the Kukkiwon standard, and we can see that is far removed from the large clunky movements of the Chang Hon Hyungs created by NAM and HAN. If anything, it is clear that the first 3 taegeuk Poomsaes are direct descendants of the early Okinawans forms and not reworked Chang Hon hyungs.

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**GranFire** · 08-08-2007 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by JStinson

Relearning 7 forms is not the same as learning new forms, although it is a big task. If you want to practice forms in a traditional sense, you would learn 1, maybe 2 forms at the most and learn what the forms are used for.

I am talking about forms re done - worse than new, from scratch, that I have to be able to know forward and backwards, at the drop of a hat! Just think muscle memory, and routine, subtle differences or mirror image moves...it is harder to unlearn than to learn fresh!

**JStinson** · 08-08-2007 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by GranFire

I am talking about forms re done - worse than new, from scratch, that I have to be able to know forward and backwards, at the drop of a hat! Just think muscle memory, and routine, subtle differences or mirror image moves...it is harder to unlearn than to learn fresh!

That is why I think changing forms is not a good idea. I know what you are talking about when it comes to "unlearning." I have to get people to do that when they have previous experience before coming to my school. Mainly lots of bad habits though. When I first learned the Chang Han set, I learned them "redone." Changed schools and found I was not doing them the way Choi had done them. All that work for 'nil.

**JStinson** · 08-08-2007 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by dodgeduckdodge

The Palgwe, Yudanja/Kodanja and Taegeuk Poomsae did not come from the Chang Hon Hyungs.

However, regardless of historical fact, all we have to do is look at the Taegeuk Poomsae, done by the Kukkiwon standard, and we can see that is far removed from the large clunky movements of the Chang Hon Hyungs created by NAM and HAN. If anything, it is clear that the first 3 taegeuk Poomsaes are direct descendants of the early Okinawans forms and not reworked Chang Hon hyungs.

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OK, let me see if I have this straight. The Taegeuk forms with there walking stances look like the Okinawan forms??? The Okinawan forms I have seen and done had longer stances than the Chang Han forms. The upright stances of the Taegeuk forms were intriduced to complement the fighting style derived from the Taekyon background.

**GranFire** · 08-08-2007 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by JStinson

That is why I think changing forms is not a good idea. I know what you are talking about when it comes to "unlearning." I have to get people to do that when they have previous experience before coming to my school. Mainly lots of bad habits though. When I first learned the Chang Han set, I learned them "redone." Changed schools and found I was not doing them the way Choi had done them. All that work for 'nil.

And since Choi is about reproach....

I don't think forms is for naught, even in variation. Even in our micro organized place (national lvl that is) there are still great variations in the forms, though the rule states "as seen on DVD".

As and act of learning I don't mind change and new forms. A leading neurologist has proven that by doing things our body is not accustomed to we form new connections in our brains, even as adults (while traditionally it's said these developments are halted at age three or so) and I am working out with a woman who is proof for that.

But balancing two sets of forms, or more than one form per rank (depending on how much time in rank you will have) is a mental work out.

And for the instructors...it does not matter if you add a new set to your curriculum or learn a completely new set. You will have to do the mental push up and learn one new set, well enough to teach to your students. take your Vitamins, get plenty of rest...it's a toughy!

**dodgeduckdodge** · 08-09-2007 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by JStinson

OK, let me see if I have this straight. The Taegeuk forms with there walking stances look like the Okinawan forms??? The Okinawan forms I have seen and done had longer stances than the Chang Han forms. The upright stances of the Taegeuk forms were intriduced to complement the fighting style derived from the Taekyon background.

Get Gichin Funakoshi's book "To-Te Jitsu" ISBN 0-920129-22-6, published in 1922. Unlike Funakoshi Sensei's later work Karate-Do Kyohan, in To-Te Jitsu, he himself is pictured demonstrating the kata. Almost all the many photo's of Funakoshi Sensei's technique show him in high and narrow stances.

This is also evident in all of the original Okinawan masters films and books. Kenwa Mabuni, Kanken Toyama, Shimabuku and more.

Also, search Youtube for video of Funakoshi Sensei performing the kata. It is amazing to see. When you see it, consider this; You are watching your teachers, teachers, teachers, teacher (or more!)

If you have trouble locating the book, or videos, let me know, I will assist you.

Oh, by the way, the so-called walking stances found in the first three Taegeuk Poomsae have nothing to do with Kyorugi Jasae (sparring stance). This issue was brought up at the Kukkiwon Instructors Course. The Sabum stated there was no such relation, nor intention.

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**eXcessiveForce** · 08-09-2007 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by wsdddoa012

OK hypothetical.... What would happen if someone did decide to teach both ITF and WTF forms in the same cirriculum?.. Seeing how they dont like mixing up things.

And yes I did know that dodgeduckdodge..

There was a Universal Taekwondo around for awhile that did teach both sets of forms and a third set if I remember correctly. I haven't seen anything out of them in 10 years though

**dodgeduckdodge** · 08-09-2007 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by JStinson

OK, let me see if I have this straight. The Taegeuk forms with there walking stances look like the Okinawan forms??? The Okinawan forms I have seen and done had longer stances than the Chang Han forms. The upright stances of the Taegeuk forms were intriduced to complement the fighting style derived from the Taekyon background.

Oh, one more thing!

There are no stances, or fighting techniques of Taekwondo that were derived from Taekkyon. How do I know?

- I am currently one of only a few American practitioners of Taekkyon.
- Taekkyon "stance" and special stepping is a contradiction to the goals of Taekwondo techniques and are completely unrelated.
- Actually is is wrong to say Taekkyon even has a stance, it has movement.
- Several Kwan leaders have personally told me there is no relation between the two.
- The only direct influence of Taekkyon can be found in the current version of Koryo. And those few techniques are mutated and not applicable to their original technique and use in Taekkyon.

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**JStinson** · 08-09-2007 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by dodgeduckdodge

Get Gichin Funakoshi's book "To-Te Jitsu" ISBN 0-920129-22-6, published in 1922. Unlike Funakoshi Sensei's later work Karate-Do Kyohan, in To-Te Jitsu, he himself is pictured demonstrating the kata. Almost all the many photo's of Funakoshi Sensei's technique show him in high and narrow stances.

This is also evident in all of the original Okinawan masters films and books. Kenwa Mabuni, Kanken Toyama, Shimabuku and more.

Also, search Youtube for video of Funakoshi Sensei performing the kata. It is amazing to see. When you see it, consider this; You are watching your teachers, teachers, teachers, teacher (or more!)

If you have trouble locating the book, or videos, let me know, I will assist you.

Oh, by the way, the so-called walking stances found in the first three Taegeuk Poomsae have nothing to do with Kyorugi Jasae (sparring stance). This issue was brought up at the Kukkiwon Instructors Course. The Sabum stated there was no such relation, nor intention.

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Sorry, I don't get information from books. Too much "lost in translation" for me. As for video, I have seen some historical video of him, his stances look nothing like the new style, similar, maybe, but so does some stances from other unrelated arts.

**JStinson** · 08-09-2007 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by GranFire

And since Choi is about reproach....

I don't think forms is for naught, even in variation. Even in our micro organized place (national lvl that is) there are still great variations in the forms, though the rule states "as seen on DVD".

As and act of learning I don't mind change and new forms. A leading neurologist has proven that by doing things our body is not accustomed to we form new connections in our brains, even as adults (while traditionally it's said these developments are halted at age three or so) and I am working out with a woman who is proof for that.

But balancing two sets of forms, or more than one form per rank (depending on how much time in rank you will have) is a mental work out.

And for the instructors...it does not matter if you add a new set to your curriculum or learn a completely new set. You will have to do the mental push up and learn one new set, well enough to teach to your students. take your Vitamins, get plenty of rest...it's a toughy!

Sure it is good for the brain, so is solitaire. Fact is that most people do not like doing a form, let alone three of them per level. I have been teaching for 20 years now and have seen only a handful of people that actually like forms. Most quit because they get frustrated with learning them. Yes, I know there are exceptions, just going by what I have seen. Plus, most people memorize them for the next test and either forget them completly or can't do them for crap when asked to do them. Then there is the issue of asking the student what certain moves are used for and they have no idea.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them and liked teaching them, but by far most people dont'

**GranFire** · 08-09-2007 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by JStinson

Sure it is good for the brain, so is solitaire. Fact is that most people do not like doing a form, let alone three of them per level. I have been teaching for 20 years now and have seen only a handful of people that actually like forms. Most quit because they get frustrated with learning them. Yes, I know there are exceptions, just going by what I have seen. Plus, most people memorize them for the next test and either forget them completly or can't do them for crap when asked to do them. Then there is the issue of asking the student what certain moves are used for and they have no idea.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them and liked teaching them, but by far most people dont'

I teach a lot of kids. I try to make it clear to them that forms are not a means in it self, but serve a purpose: Practice the full range of moves you would otherwise not be able to do, say while sparring, and explain to the best of my ability what the move they are doing is supposed to accomplish. Seems to work OK. of course, there are the sparrers, and there are those that just work real hard at all parts of it. I like forms... though there are a couple I can't get on a friendly base with!

**dodgeduckdodge** · 08-09-2007 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by wsdddoa012

Has the mixing of both ITF and WTF forms every taken place? would the ITF or WTF allow a tkd instructor to mix forms from both organizations?

Mike, the WTF could care less. You have the wrong idea about what the WTF is. Let me explain a few things.

First off, the ITF and the WTF are very different administratively. The ITF sets curriculum standards and requirements for individual, instructor and school membership.

As for the WTF:

- no person can be a member of the WTF
- only one national taekwondo association in each nation can be a member of the WTF
- the WTF itself is a member of the International Olympic Committee
- the WTF is nothing more than a tournament committee, they only run tournaments and nothing else.
- they don't issue Dan (black belt) certificates
- they did not create any forms
- they did not create a sparring style
- they don't have a curriculum
- they don't have a color, or black belt system
- they do however choose what they feel is authentic taekwondo associations and what type of sparring and poomsae will be judged at their events.

As for the ITF:
- they set curriculum
-they issued Dan and instructor certificates
- they do not allow non ITF school students to enter their championships
- they run tournaments
- they are a private organization, meaning they are a business, just like the local muffler shop.

Hope that helps

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**dodgeduckdodge** · 08-09-2007 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by JStinson

Sorry, I don't get information from books. Too much "lost in translation" for me. As for video, I have seen some historical video of him, his stances look nothing like the new style, similar, maybe, but so does some stances from other unrelated arts.

Really, so where do you get your information from then?

Let's take this for example; "The upright stances of the Taegeuk forms were intriduced to complement the fighting style derived from the Taekyon background."

Where did you get this from?

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**JStinson** · 08-09-2007 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by dodgeduckdodge

Really, so where do you get your information from then?

Let's take this for example; "The upright stances of the Taegeuk forms were intriduced to complement the fighting style derived from the Taekyon background."

Where did you get this from?

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Instructors...

People that have knowledge of the art I am asking about. Not to say books are not a valuable asset, I just don't trust all books. And before it is said, I know people can be just as false as books, my choice. Internet is an even worse choice in my opinion, anyone can write whatever they want.

From what I see, you belong to the WTF and have your own opinion, that is fine. It just is not what I choose to believe. So, agree to disagree.

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