Thread: Empty hand knife defense

I hate critiquing a video because it seems everyone gets mad at me so Tom please don’t think this is a personal attack because it’s not.

I often wonder where these knife defenses come from and if folks actually attempt these things in live FonF.

Blocking the highline as shown many times in this video leaves you open for the knife coming in under the armpit if you guess wrong and I’ve seen a lot folks guess wrong during FonF fighting (force on force) as well as in the real world. Of course this is bad because the knife may likely penetrate the lung and the heart. The armpit area is favorite target for prison shankings (so is the neck). Also, many experienced knifers ala “prison style” will sewing machine their victims which many defenses you see in many martial arts including this video will not work against it, at least not well and could even put the user at greater risk.

And catching wrists in midair against someone using real world sewing machine energy is nearly impossible. These defenses are easy to pull off using demonstration energy where both the attacker and defender are on the same page and work together and less easy but still doable when you know the attack but not so easy against a “real world attack” where you don’t know what the other guy is going to do or if he even has a knife. Remember some 85% of knife victims don’t even see the knife until after they are stabbed and around 60% don’t even know they have been stabbed until the fight is over thinking they were being punched. *Data taken from Darren Lauer studies and independently verified by my own observations as a paramedic in places like Baltimore (Shock Trauma) and Washing DC as well as working in other dangerous places around the world.

Any defense has to consider a “catch-all” type approach for when you don’t know if he is armed or not (you haven’t seen empty hands before the strike). The movement pattern needs to account equally for a punch or knife coming on the high line, midline, or low line and for increased stress levels and body alarm (fine motor techniques are very difficult to pull off in this situation).

The best defenses I have experimented with are usually fairly plain and ordinary looking….anticlimactic really.

I'd have to say when we do actual empty hand vs. knife, it never is complex. Mostly trying to maintain distance and hoping for that one great shot to take out the attacker or disarm them.

If you do manage to get a hold of the arm holding the knife and immobilize it, on the off chance you can strip it, strip it, otherwise just start hitting them really hard.

Great thread, I wish we could all get together with some training knives.

Originally Posted by eXcessiveForce

I'd have to say when we do actual empty hand vs. knife, it never is complex. Mostly trying to maintain distance and hoping for that one great shot to take out the attacker or disarm them.

If you do manage to get a hold of the arm holding the knife and immobilize it, on the off chance you can strip it, strip it, otherwise just start hitting them really hard.

Yah, I think that can be more effective for real world application than much of what you see out there. We want to keep our responses simple at least as simple as it needs to be.

I think half the battle is knowing what type of fight your in, for instance the gun guy wants to get to his gun but at close range you have to deal with the most immediate threat before moving on to the preferred skill-set or another way to say it, your “optimal skill-set”. That means you have to deal with that knife first.

I really want to describe how I do it but it really needs visuals because I can assure you the process isn’t easily described in writing though, not difficult to perform.

But at the risk of totally flubbing my descriptions…I use to prescribe to a variation of the “Red Zone” defense which I still think is a valid method. Lately, I have been experimenting with other stuff based on kali foot work and simple passing of the blade with the diamond shape foot work that protects the vitals (such as the ribs/armpit, neck, femoral artery, brachial and radial artery all at the same time). This may sound complicated but it really isn’t. After passing the blade there are many options. For instance, you can go for a disarm, take the back, shove off- to a weapons draw, etc.

I like to get the angle on his back shoulder or back then shove him away (or myself away if he is bigger) in a drive-by attack fashion and draw the gun and shoot him to slide lock as I keep moving while I reload, ready to shoot him some more if that is what it takes.

In my observations doing this in FonF I see many folks (myself included) getting stuck somewhere in the middle (because the BG does something unexpected) and then it becomes a “Red Zone” type movement i.e. press the knife arm (one hand above the elbow and the other below the elbow) into his body and slide the hand above the elbow down to gain the 2 on 1 baseball grip at the knifer’s wrist and bend him over by applying your weight strait down to the ground. Now the underhook is available hooking with the inside arm under his armpit while controlling the knife at the wrist with the outside arm. From here you can strike and/or drive him into the pavement headfirst, then rip his shoulder or elbow, are just a few of a number of things you can do from this position. So there are measures built-in in case the defense doesn’t go as smoothly as it is supposed to.

It is important to switch angles from stepping in the direction of the attack and blocking the knife (near forearm down, far forearm up, protecting the arteries) below his attacking elbow (not above his elbow) to stepping into the badguy with a headbutt before passing the blade driving him back or at least not letting him step forward (some of this should be familiar to the kali guys). And for the gun guys out there it is critical to negotiate and manage his initial plan before brining the gun into the fight. Personally, I always want to get weapons into the fight.

However, in all honesty “passing the blade” is something that took some getting use to.

This wasn’t meant to be a detailed description and what I did describe I don’t know if I have accurately described it as to give you an accurate mental picture. So I have probably confused you and wasted my time. But suffice to say there are no “wonder techniques” just ones that allow you to survive more often. And with all things you need to know your limitations.

Movement pattern and blocking pattern:

OOPs, in the second picture the right arm (outside arm) the palm is facing down.

Originally Posted by Ghost

lol i know what you are getting at with that diagram because of the explainations but man..... your drawing skills in paint need some work

Drawing and/or "paint" is not my optimal skillset

I once did research on FATAL knife attacks and to my suprise I found that a very high percentage of fatal knife attacks also involved blunt force trauma.
That can be either before, after, or during the knife attack and can be with or without a blunt force weapon. Most of the time the victim was beat with fist after the knife attack.

The underhook position:

probably because some people will ignore the knife completely even after being stuck or slashed and continue to try and beat you two a pulp. So if you don't hit something vital you end up with a very aggressive person in survival mode. sometimes they may do this simply because they didn't see the knife and don't know how much damage has been inflicted.


Also most knife attacks are not going to be from people extremely skilled with a knife like you find in the FMA's.


The video reminded me of one of my first knife training situations. The guy teaching it told us.

First rule, don't bend elbow. if you don't bend elbow we do just fine.

then proceeded to show a straight arm over the head attack with the knife to which everyone laughed.

really though, one must wonder why you are approaching an attacker with a knife unarmed. For God sakes get an equalizer quick. Unarmed vs. armed is only the worst case scenario and only lasts until you can get a weapon of your own.

People like ex Cons who are unskilled with a knife have a brilliant strategy. They want to stab you about 100 times.