Maxx

Interesting. I don't think I've ever been in a TKD school which had all of those flaws, but every single martial art school I have been in had some of them. Whether it be TKD, Karate, muay thai, BJJ, shooto, Jeet Kune Do, Kali... no art or method of training is perfect.

Those people who are unhappy with their training at a particular school can move on and find something more challenging and more in line with their personal needs. Those who are happy and are having their needs met by their current instructor can stay right where they are.

Liberty

It's telling that you did not name what those flaws are in Muay Thai (other than it's lack of a counter-ground game), JKD and Kali. Care to name at least five for each (Karate flaws would basically be all the above, shoot and BJJ, lacking in the stand up aspect). I'm curious as to what you'd come up with.

Here's a hand up - Kali's movement principles apply just as well empty handed as on the ground - what's left? And good luck finding flaws in JKD's well-rounded game.

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- Liberty

eXcessiveForce

I'll Play.

JKD,

lack for sparring, over emphasis on pad work
No defense for kicks inside boxing/Trapping range
Lack of conditioning and stretching in teaching, leading to limited flexibility and range.
Poor protection of the mid section.
Lack of adequate kicking technique, range, and versatility


MT

Over Emphasis on rear leg kicks.
Reliance on higher levels of conditioning to the exclusion of technique.
Some schools only do padwork and do not spar.
Guard is often carried too high.
Forward facing stance leaves large openings.
Sometimes crippling injuries in training lead to a decrease in long term effectiveness.


And before somebody decides to go there, I essentially train JKD, with some modifications at the core.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

Michael Wright

you see its odd, I can't relate any of those critiques to the JKD and Muay Thai I have studied. I could provide other weaknesses, for sure, but it just goes to show that each individual teacher passes on their expression of the art, surpassing the art, and defining the individual instead..

....which is JKD

eXcessiveForce

yup, I was shocked the first time I went to a MT school and they said we don't spar.

Same for the JKD schools.


I was baffled. The joke around here is I've devolved more JKD people than anyone. Most because many have worked to try to learn the kicking system that I use that is from TKD. Hell I had some of them even learn forms for a bit. LOL

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

Michael Wright

I hear you. A ring sport....and we don't spar. Been to those schools, they got some mean pad drills......and.......

In terms of JKD, to be frank, the worst thing that ever happened to JKD was seminars. 200 - 300 people, who cant spar or condition because it ain't in the disclaimer.

Thats why I teach out of my garage, for free, and everyone who walks in the door understands that we mix it up. If you don't like it.....what do you want, your money back???

I know you train largely via sparring, which is just the best way to go, hope to maybe come and learn from your group when I come over to the States next year.

__________________
"Debate is an exchange of ideas - not a constant refusal to acknowledge them"
Mike Brewer

eXcessiveForce

We'd love to have you come and you are always welcome.

We have fun and I'm sure we could learn a lot from you.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

Liberty

Whoops - my bad - neglected to qualify what I meant by JKD - oh wait a minute, I did qualify it - "JKD's well-rounded game."

Believe me, not even the last thing on my mind was the McJKD mess Lee's martial art has been turned into by far too many.

I was thinking of folks like Lamar Davis, Matt Thornton, et al - guys who train themselves and their students an all around game - the mitts, the realistic sparring, stand up, the ground, escapes, think hit, the interval stuff, the nutrition, etc. Guys in the traditon of Lee's 'every part of your body" - not the mass of clowns out there that "play JKD." Some of the simple, direct, non-classical people on here, for that matter.

Say, you didn't pick on Kali. Some of those old guys, man, put a knife in their hands and forget the all around - devastating little dudes with those angles!

Say, is this the right forum for this one - LOL!

__________________
- Liberty

Michael Wright

Thank you sir.

I'm speaking with the great Mike B on my plans Stateside, it would be great to come down and mix it up.

we'll stay in touch

__________________
"Debate is an exchange of ideas - not a constant refusal to acknowledge them"
Mike Brewer

eXcessiveForce

My exposure to kali is limited. So I wouldn't want to base any statements on the little bit of exposure I have had.


Of the others I have multiple experiences to know that my comments are wide spread


I remember watching on of Lamar Davis's video, granted it was old, but the knife defense would get you killed.


It just goes to show though, every system has it's issues, especially one that has been around for a long time.

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eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.

Michael Wright

There is a functional core to Kali that forms perhaps less than 10% of the art, and it is in my belief the most effective method I have studied, for a specific purpose. I trust the lives of Soldiers and Police Officers to it.

Then there is the other 90% or so that tends to penetrate the public domain, which to be honest falls purely within the category of recreational training.

The mistake of many students, and certain instructors, is to confuse the two.

Maxx

I think that find 5 flaws would be difficult for any one of the martial arts that I named including TKD. I was, however, not making reference to the arts as much as I was the individual schools that teach these systems. Aside from that I would list a few common flaws I have seen from school to school that teach each of the arts that I've listed above. Do keep in mind that I am not bashing any of these systems, I am merely pointing out weaknesses in the way that I generally see them taught.

Muay Thai: As mentioned before, no ground game, but I also do run across a large number of practitioners who don't know how to shield leg kicks or body kicks well. I also do run into the occasional school that does not spar. Elbows also seem to be dissappearing from the general american curriculum as are a large number of knee strikes you would generally see.

Jeet Kune Do: There seem to be two schools of thought here. Those schools who train people to fight and those that teach technique more or less. Many practitioners, especially from Europe seem to be very highly technically developed in their jun fan based trapping but couldn't fight off a band of 5th graders if it came down to it. I also run into a lot of people who don't seem to have any wind or do contact sparring.

one other thing that just occurred to me is the certification problem in JKD. I've come across a large number of "instructors" who are "certified" who barely know how to apply Pak Sao or Lop Sao, much less anything else. These people are sometimes certified by well known JKD figureheads either through seminars or intense weekend training programs and are then given certs.

Kali, I think is a incredible weapons art, but I don't run across that many people in Kali who are good empty hand fighters unless they have cross trained in another system. Also, I've found a lot of practitioners who are very good at the various drills such as Hubud or Countra Sumbrada that can pull of some amazing things out of the drills but have no real world fighting experience. Some of the techniques are also questionable as well. I did a little training under a high ranked instructor in Lameco Escrima about 10 years ago and some of the stuff he was trying to pass off as knife defense made me a little nervous.

Keep in mind, I personally see these flaws as being the product of the school and instructor at that school, not the art itself. The 3 martial arts (or martial philosophies if you will) are all comprehensive in their own way and are very respectable systems.

My personal opinion though is that TKD is just as respectable as any one of the systems above. It is just as comprehensive if you look at it on paper. General Choi wrote an entire encyclopedia set on the art covering every aspect from punching, kicking, throwing, self defense, grappling, etc. Some instructors choose to teach all aspects of the system... most don't, and that's sad.

Michael Wright

Given my experiences, I think there are some very fair points in there.

Good post.

__________________
"Debate is an exchange of ideas - not a constant refusal to acknowledge them"
Mike Brewer

Liberty

As usual these discussions are just as interesting for what they reveal about how a question responded to was understood to begin with.

In my mind JKD is the devastating martial art Lee himself was known for, prior to and outside of his movie JKD - that potential rather than the slap-fest/dead patterns joke many have turned it into. Likewise with Kali the martial art it once was, still is, though in the hands of very few.

I have to wonder sometimes what those who "play act" these arts that were once so alive, so reality based, must be thinking as they pretend to spar, etc. Not to demean these people, I just wonder what it is they must be believing they are doing.

I mean, take the following clip.

YouTube Video

These two guys may believe they are expressing JKD, Bruce Lee picture and all, but watching it I cannot help recall that scene in "Fist of Fury."

Where Lee's character, walks into what is purportedly a Judo school, Jigoro Kano picture and all, and basically wipes the floor with it's head instructors - as much Hollywood as it was his point about what happens when the original founder's martial art's core principles are lost sight of.

On that note, who knew he was fortelling JKD's own future, Bruce Lee picture on the wall and all!

To those of you on this forum who truly practice JKD, who have not followed that "pretend JKD" path, I commend you. We may not have always seen eye to eye on this forum. Still, I'm sure that were your art's founder to walk in on one of your training sessions, he'd break out into one of those sunny smiles of his.

As Lee used to say, "may it go well with you, my friend...."

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- Liberty

eXcessiveForce

While not exactly like that, our group noticed that as everyone got used to everyone else, that you would spend more time standing looking at eachother because people knew the smallest screw up would lead to getting hit. But once realized we worked hard to break that, the idea being to still get hits even when the other person is ready for you.

I do know if I tried to spar like that it would be a short night and a week of headaches.

__________________
eXcessiveFORCE.

If you must use force, make it excessive.