Thread: Taekwondo as a Delivery system

Allow me to point out some things in your post that will highlight why I think TKD has issues, even as a foundation for other things:

Our system uses boxing type handwork,
Kicks to all area's
Kicks of both the snap and Thai type
We do have ground fighting based on GJJ
In comparison we have found some element of Silat and Kali in the system.
We do weapons
We spar and all contact levels
We spar with very few rules at Black belt level.
We spar with Weapons
We have pressure points
We have joint manipulation.
We teach awareness and avoidance
We teach improvised weapons.
We can compete in all competitions including MMA if we so choose


I need to qualify my comments as I have never taken TKD. I did take about 2 months of Tang Soo Do as a youth.

You deviate heavily from the TKD norm, at least as I understand it.

If you take tomato juice and mix in some vodka, pepper, horseradish, lemon juice, ice, and a straw you no longer have tomato juice.

If you take TKD, add in joint manipulation from Hapkido, ground work from GJJ, pressure point info from Dillman, and many other things you no longer have TKD.

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Any style that teaches one dimension of conflict excluding any or all of the others is a very weak foundational art. There are many good aspects to TKD that get missed and I think that is due to the fact that the more stable systems address those particular aspects in a more complete manner.

For example, the art I train as my foundation gives me strong understanding in the basic principles that I have found to be consistent in Judo and Gracie Jiu-jitsu. I can critically evaluate other systems, such as Dillman's Kempo, Shaolin Kung-Fu and Aikido. And find the principles of how they do what they do.

In the past I have trained with about 5 or 6 individuals who are TKD stylists. They understand the moves very well, but they lack a deeper understanding of what is happening and why.

This may not be the norm, but it is the experience that I have based my conclusions on.

Good topic!

Spanky

If you take tomato juice and mix in some vodka, pepper, horseradish, lemon juice, ice, and a straw you no longer have tomato juice.

Sure you do, it's just in an advanced form. Point is why so hung up on a name? TKD itself is from Shotokan which is from shorin which is from...

The core of TKD is unreliable. TKD teaches superficial techniques such as : low block, outer block, front stance, back stance, etc... that don’t represent real movement.

Yes and no. The movements themselves are OK but they have to part of something more. Without footwork, body shifting, angling and knowing what the block is setting up they are a waste. I personally prefer narrower more upright stances for standup.

Personally, I find it comforting to start with a mainstream, traditional MA like WTF TKD, and then add/delete to make a system that suits me. I will always have TKD to fall back on, I have world-wide accreditation via the Kukkiwon, but I am free to add whatever I want.

I prefer this scenario over the "hey look, I founded my own system complete with oriental-sounding name" scenario that was so popular in the 80's and 90's. Imagine moving to another state/country with a black belt in Joe San Do!

Elements of trad. TKD suck - but its not the only MA with a reverse punch or a horse stance!

A good thread BTW!

I'm not trying to cut on WTF TKD but I train and teach ITF TKD and it is basically western kickboxing, it was a great foundation for me to go into full contact Muay Thai. One thing became obvious to me while I was training in Thailand and that was that I had great reflexes from my 13 years in TKD and had some extra weapons and angles of attack that my opponents would not have that could give me an advantage and take them by surprise. I even won my first fight with a stereotypical TKD kick (turning side kick).

On December 1st I move to Thailand and plan to continue my amateur fight career and then go pro if things go well, I'll be able to give more information then on how successful some TKD moves are in the ring.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Damian, a friend of mine who competes in MT hates guys that have good TKD skills to go along with the MT. According to him the fast kicking combos are a pain and the side kicks are worse than teeps to get hit with. He still won but he had to force the fights in close. Good luck with your training Damian.


By the way everyone, when we say reverse punch we mean a punch from the side further back and not the twisting motion. Right?

Thanks Brokenelbow, I try to work on my weaknesses in Muay Thai alot so that I can actually use my TKD effectivley but still have the Muay Thai arsenal and foundation to work from. For me a TKD technique should be used sparingly as a "surprise" to catch your opponent off guard and hopefully knock them out. This is actually pretty effective versus Thai fighters as they do not see these kinds of techniques often if at all compared to Western fighters that see alot of karate and TKD.

I think it's really important for a fighter coming from a background like me to get Muay Thai down completely and then slowly learn to incorporate techniques from other arts. I hated the clinch when I first started Muay Thai over 2 years ago but with all the practice I have learned to love the clinch.

One of the training drills I do is to train until I'm exhausted with straight Muay Thai drills and THEN work my TKD attacks from a exhausted state and try to work accuracy and power while tired since in the ring I will most likely try these when both me and my opponent are pretty tired late in the fight.

I always thought of reverse punch as a right cross.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Originally posted by eXcessiveForce
Our system uses boxing type handwork,
Kicks to all area's
Kicks of both the snap and Thai type
We do have ground fighting based on GJJ
In comparison we have found some element of Silat and Kali in the system.
We do weapons
We spar and all contact levels
We spar with very few rules at Black belt level.
We spar with Weapons
We have pressure points
We have joint manipulation.
We teach awareness and avoidance
We teach improvised weapons.
We can compete in all competitions including MMA if we so choose

We do not wear chest protectors generally.

That doesn't sound like TKD at all.

I think I misunderstand your last statement heh. That style of TKD you described has more people doing it than any other style of TKD worldwide? Is that what you are saying?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I trained traditional TKD for over 15 years, both WTF and ITF. I now train JKD with straight blast. What I found lacking was the training methods. If you apply proper training methods then your arsenal will automatically move to what is practical and useful. You will automatically reject what is useless. It becomes a natural process of good training methods. It is all about alive training. If you do that you can start with whatever you know, or whatever art you happen to have available to you. Aliveness forces you to test and modify, test and modify some more and it will eventually start to develop into something very useful to you. Call it whatever you want! In fact at straightblast we hardly ever use the term JKD anymore.

I have a BB in both ITF and WTF, there are obvious holes and I have and continue to study other styles to fill those holes. TKD was a great way for me to start 18 yrs. ago, it's fairly simple in it's movements (though not always effective) I gained flexibility and most importantly what I call "martial sense" by that I mean I learned how (or started learning would be a better statement) and why certain movements are done and got my intro to sparring, etc. Granted, I have a bb in Kyokushin, have studied MT and am now studying BJJ, but none of it would have started if I didn't step into that first TKD class. Fortunately, I had a great instructor and school and I totally agree that alot of the TKD schools and instructors nowadays suck, unfortunate but true. A martial art system comes down to the individual when it's all said and done, I could hand someone a gun, doesn't mean they can shoot it.