how much pain can you take?

randi · 09-17-2005, 06:47 PM

hi all, im new here. great forum!

ive been practising for 20 over years and i have come to believe that pain and injuries, and the ability to endure them may be a big factor in deciding the outcome of a fight/match? anyone agree? most of the time, the emphasis it seems is to focus on one's skills/abilities/technical proficiency etc.
but the fact and reality of fighting remains - however good one is, if one does not have a high pain threshold, one will succumb quickly at the first sign of pain/injury/blood. so the question is, how does one handle pain?
is there a mental/physical training to withstand pain? how would you react to, say, a broken nose,teeth,a kick to the groin/ribs,a broken arm(armbar)?

the question is, will you/should one carry on fighting despite a bloodied face or simply surrender? (short of being KO-ed or choked out, that is

Garland · 09-17-2005, 11:55 PM

lets just say that I'm the kid at the party that likes to make up drinking games with a nine volt battery, roach clips and an egg timer.

**HtTKar** · 09-18-2005, 08:18 PM

A lot of it is technique, too. Sure at first you take punches squarely across your nose. Your nose breaks, and you learn to better angle your face so punches slide off. The first time you get nailed in the ribs you probably werent breathing right. It hurts and later bruises. Later you learn to exhale while being hit. Your techniques, stances, and posture change as you get more confortable fighting; as does your understanding of your art. So how do you deal with pain? You adapt.

Is there mental/physical training to withstand pain?
An interesting study found that pain tolerance is also cultural. Certain cultures have developed higher pain tolerances than others. Beleive it or not the study had Irish with the highest pain tolerance, and Italian with the lowest. It might not be true, but I think it may show that how you're raised influences how much pain your willing to endure. So although I dont know any training, it could be developed, and it probably exists.

Many people aren't used to even rough-housing. There's a difference between pain and injury. Rough-play, games that build tolerance, teamwork, aggression, and athleticism are probably the best way to build pain tolerance among children. Get them wrestling, playing football, sparring, etc, as long as its fun. That would be my best guess.

djcaldwell · 09-19-2005, 01:25 PM

I happen to agree that pain threshold definitely plays part in the outcome of a fight. If it didn't then who cares who the better fighter is because you're not hurting me. MA techiniques such a joint locks are created to immobilize and generate pain - if there was no pain then we're just holding on.

Now as to conditioning, I believe it is more physical but you can also teach yourself to mentally endure more. IMHO it is the training itself that over time creates ones endurance to pain (if you don't have one already). Some people are just naturally born with a higher threshold for pain than others. I have broken my wrists, foot, nose and yeah it hurt but never as much as I thought it should have. I pulled my hamstring right off the bone it was just hanging there. That hurt very much but yet - a week later I wrapped it really tight and went out and played roller hockey (injured it worse that night) but the point is naturally I had a higher pain threshold than most.

With that, in training Muay Thai I found that my shins were no where near ready for what I was to endure. So although it hurt like hell I kept kicking and rubbing until I was able to kick that bag 100 times and feel nothing but the power I was generating. It wasn't that I trained my mind not to feel the pain but physically I trained my senses to endure more, to become accustom to what they were feeling. Mentally, I just had to endure and persevere through the lesser pain until my body was trained to deal with it.

This is different however from shall we say intense pains such as broken bones one may experience and even there is even a level of pain between a break from a clean one to a compound fracture that is going to leave you on the floor screaming I don't care how tough you are. Your bone breaks through the skin - you're freaking out.

Mentally, you can however teach yourself to ignor some pain. I have been able to work through a lot of pain by changing the focus. Now in a fight you have other factors - adrenaline being a huge one - if you are in serious fight often you don't feel anything until it's over. When I was younger I took a pounding in a street fight - durring the fight I got hit and kicked and whatever but it wasn't until the next day that I realized how hard I'd been hit that it really did hurt. If you shoudl contiune a fight with a broken arm, nose or what have you - there is not general answer to that other than to say it would have to depend on the situation.

With all due respect anyone who says they will fight through broken bones (nose excluded) they are fooling themselves. UNLESS, it is a life or death situation if you break a bone in a fight (and feel it) and don't stop - you're an idiot. If it was for my life or that of my children and felt that I would be dead even if I stopped - then that is the only time I would honestly say I would continue.

BrAz!LiAn TiG3R · 09-20-2005, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djcaldwell

With all due respect anyone who says they will fight through broken bones (nose excluded) they are fooling themselves. UNLESS, it is a life or death situation if you break a bone in a fight (and feel it) and don't stop - you're an idiot. If it was for my life or that of my children and felt that I would be dead even if I stopped - then that is the only time I would honestly say I would continue.

Well I agree very much with the rest of your post. Very insightful and true. But I've seen and heard stories of guys intoxicated on drugs or alcohol or are just plain crazy continue to fight through very serious injuries. In that kind of situation no matter what you do to the guy will stop him from attacking you. You can break his arms and legs and his face will be completely smashed but he will keep going on his crazy rampage. Unless the guy is unconscious he's not going to stop. In addition if you've ever fought a crazy drunk person you'll find they're not very easy to hit, so knocking them out is no easy task. Unless they're already on the ground and you can manage a solid kick or stomp to their head. They move very unpredictably and swing wildly and move slow, then fast, then slow again. Very commonly in that kind of situation the only way to put a quick end to that kind of confrontation is to put them to sleep with a choke.

randi · 09-20-2005, 05:25 AM

Thanks all for your insightful replies.

Am I stating the obvious, that martial arts is basically a pain game? However well one is trained, in whatever kind of art, it doesnt really matter when one fine day the reality just hits you in the face, and you say to yourself, "damn that hurts! i quit...all my training is useless!"

So when should one accept defeat and give up in a fight? When you find that your kicks/punches have no effect whatsoever on your opponent? or when your face is bloodied? Or is there such a thing as a true martial spirit(budo?)...defeat is disgrace! no, no, too shameful, one must defend one's honor, one's art, one's school, one's cat...and so one must fight to death!!!!!

djcaldwell · 09-21-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrAz!LiAn TiG3R

Well I agree very much with the rest of your post. Very insightful and true. But I've seen and heard stories of guys intoxicated on drugs or alcohol or are just plain crazy continue to fight through very serious injuries. In that kind of situation no matter what you do to the guy will stop him from attacking you. You can break his arms and legs and his face will be completely smashed but he will keep going on his crazy rampage. Unless the guy is unconscious he's not going to stop. In addition if you've ever fought a crazy drunk person you'll find they're not very easy to hit, so knocking them out is no easy task. Unless they're already on the ground and you can manage a solid kick or stomp to their head. They move very unpredictably and swing wildly and move slow, then fast, then slow again. Very commonly in that kind of situation the only way to put a quick end to that kind of confrontation is to put them to sleep with a choke.

I agree with the first part - drugged up people often can be shot and not stop attacking. But I don't know what drunks you've been fighting. I've scrapped with a few and they have never proven too hard, depending on their level of intoxication. But the drunker they are the easier they were to handle, unless of course I'm drunk too then it kinda evens out the playing field...but even then...

BrAz!LiAn TiG3R · 09-21-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djcaldwell

I agree with the first part - drugged up people often can be shot and not stop attacking. But I don't know what drunks you've been fighting. I've scrapped with a few and they have never proven too hard, depending on their level of intoxication. But the drunker they are the easier they were to handle, unless of course I'm drunk too then it kinda evens out the playing field...but even then...

I never fought a drunk person myself, but I've heard stories. I wouldn't think it would be hard either. Like you said, it might depend on level of intoxication and mental state. If the guy is full blown crazy and half drunk with a death wish, then it probably gets a little more hectic, lol.

Karatedotcom · 10-13-2005, 05:55 PM

Mental fortitude is a large factor in sports. I think pain thresholds are found in this folder within the human spirit. I think it can be learned with training and constant exposure to.

Kotaro · 10-14-2005, 02:49 AM

Today I sparred and took a heavy hit to the nose. It didn't break but it bled pretty bad. The weird thing is, I didn't even realize it was bleeding until the round ended and my trainer asked to wipe it off. I think that in the heat of situations like a fight your body naturally overrides pain to an extent so that you can focus more on what may be a life and death situation. I've never broken my nose before, and I'm not looking forward to it. When you break your nose, can it generally be placed back into its normal position? I'm more worried about having a crooked nose for the rest of my life then just the pain of breaking it.

**shaolin-warrior** · 10-14-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garland

lets just say that I'm the kid at the party that likes to make up drinking games with a nine volt battery, roach clips and an egg timer.

Oh my god that was funny

**shaolin-warrior** · 10-14-2005, 09:18 PM

They reset my nose when i was a kid but it was wasn't a brutal break. you cant tell, it's pretty straight.

SamuraiGuy · 10-15-2005, 04:10 PM

hmmm... It really depends I guess....

While rolling I was mounted and another person was thrown and I basically saw them do a spinning ... crescent kick.. lol or something... with their shin coming right down on my face.... my nose hurt like a mother... wasnt broken though.. well dont think so... anyway... it hurt alot but I kept on rolling...

Another time... a guy tried to do a choke from the mount... and instead of bringing his forearms across my throat they went across myf ace... he fucking crushed my nose and it hurt so much... I tapped so fast... the pain of getting kicked wasnt enough to make me want to quit at all.. but the crushing of the nose... man that sucked... guess it depends..

dont think I'd stop fighting/rolling (competition/mma fight) if I had a broken nose, in a street fight I know I wouldnt cause... prolly just break something else if I give up..

**Oraenor** · 10-16-2005, 08:50 AM

When you think about it, there is a sadistical love that a martial artist embraces. He loves the pain and brings him pleasure in doing so as he understands the hardships that must be endured.

Garland · 10-17-2005, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oraenor

When you think about it, there is a sadistical love that a martial artist embraces. He loves the pain and brings him pleasure in doing so as he understands the hardships that must be endured.

sadism-inflict pain =good
masochism- recieve pain=good

everybody has a little bit sadism or masochism
except ichi
he's 100% sadistic.

09-17-2005, 06:47 PM	#1 (permalink)
randi Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 13	how much pain can you take? hi all, im new here. great forum! ive been practising for 20 over years and i have come to believe that pain and injuries, and the ability to endure them may be a big factor in deciding the outcome of a fight/match? anyone agree? most of the time, the emphasis it seems is to focus on one's skills/abilities/technical proficiency etc. but the fact and reality of fighting remains - however good one is, if one does not have a high pain threshold, one will succumb quickly at the first sign of pain/injury/blood. so the question is, how does one handle pain? is there a mental/physical training to withstand pain? how would you react to, say, a broken nose,teeth,a kick to the groin/ribs,a broken arm(armbar)? the question is, will you/should one carry on fighting despite a bloodied face or simply surrender? (short of being KO-ed or choked out, that is __________________

09-17-2005, 11:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
Garland Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 4,925	lets just say that I'm the kid at the party that likes to make up drinking games with a nine volt battery, roach clips and an egg timer. __________________ I kick you in da neck! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBHLrpn07G4 http://www.break.com/movies/englishf.html homo homini lupus Komm Susser Todd. No, no...no no no...whatever you are drinking, you need much, much more...and then to sleep. - jubaji

09-18-2005, 08:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
HtTKar Premiere Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Outer limits Posts: 1,088	A lot of it is technique, too. Sure at first you take punches squarely across your nose. Your nose breaks, and you learn to better angle your face so punches slide off. The first time you get nailed in the ribs you probably werent breathing right. It hurts and later bruises. Later you learn to exhale while being hit. Your techniques, stances, and posture change as you get more confortable fighting; as does your understanding of your art. So how do you deal with pain? You adapt. Is there mental/physical training to withstand pain? An interesting study found that pain tolerance is also cultural. Certain cultures have developed higher pain tolerances than others. Beleive it or not the study had Irish with the highest pain tolerance, and Italian with the lowest. It might not be true, but I think it may show that how you're raised influences how much pain your willing to endure. So although I dont know any training, it could be developed, and it probably exists. Many people aren't used to even rough-housing. There's a difference between pain and injury. Rough-play, games that build tolerance, teamwork, aggression, and athleticism are probably the best way to build pain tolerance among children. Get them wrestling, playing football, sparring, etc, as long as its fun. That would be my best guess. __________________ "The harder you train, the harder it is to surrender" (Vince Lombardi)

09-20-2005, 05:25 AM	#6 (permalink)
randi Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 13	Thanks all for your insightful replies. Am I stating the obvious, that martial arts is basically a pain game? However well one is trained, in whatever kind of art, it doesnt really matter when one fine day the reality just hits you in the face, and you say to yourself, "damn that hurts! i quit...all my training is useless!" So when should one accept defeat and give up in a fight? When you find that your kicks/punches have no effect whatsoever on your opponent? or when your face is bloodied? Or is there such a thing as a true martial spirit(budo?)...defeat is disgrace! no, no, too shameful, one must defend one's honor, one's art, one's school, one's cat...and so one must fight to death!!!!! __________________

10-13-2005, 05:55 PM	#9 (permalink)
Karatedotcom Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 3	Mental Stength a factor Mental fortitude is a large factor in sports. I think pain thresholds are found in this folder within the human spirit. I think it can be learned with training and constant exposure to. __________________ Visit me at www.Karate.com or on eBay at the Karatecom Martial Arts Supplies store.

09-19-2005, 01:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
djcaldwell Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 42	I happen to agree that pain threshold definitely plays part in the outcome of a fight. If it didn't then who cares who the better fighter is because you're not hurting me. MA techiniques such a joint locks are created to immobilize and generate pain - if there was no pain then we're just holding on. Now as to conditioning, I believe it is more physical but you can also teach yourself to mentally endure more. IMHO it is the training itself that over time creates ones endurance to pain (if you don't have one already). Some people are just naturally born with a higher threshold for pain than others. I have broken my wrists, foot, nose and yeah it hurt but never as much as I thought it should have. I pulled my hamstring right off the bone it was just hanging there. That hurt very much but yet - a week later I wrapped it really tight and went out and played roller hockey (injured it worse that night) but the point is naturally I had a higher pain threshold than most. With that, in training Muay Thai I found that my shins were no where near ready for what I was to endure. So although it hurt like hell I kept kicking and rubbing until I was able to kick that bag 100 times and feel nothing but the power I was generating. It wasn't that I trained my mind not to feel the pain but physically I trained my senses to endure more, to become accustom to what they were feeling. Mentally, I just had to endure and persevere through the lesser pain until my body was trained to deal with it. This is different however from shall we say intense pains such as broken bones one may experience and even there is even a level of pain between a break from a clean one to a compound fracture that is going to leave you on the floor screaming I don't care how tough you are. Your bone breaks through the skin - you're freaking out. Mentally, you can however teach yourself to ignor some pain. I have been able to work through a lot of pain by changing the focus. Now in a fight you have other factors - adrenaline being a huge one - if you are in serious fight often you don't feel anything until it's over. When I was younger I took a pounding in a street fight - durring the fight I got hit and kicked and whatever but it wasn't until the next day that I realized how hard I'd been hit that it really did hurt. If you shoudl contiune a fight with a broken arm, nose or what have you - there is not general answer to that other than to say it would have to depend on the situation. With all due respect anyone who says they will fight through broken bones (nose excluded) they are fooling themselves. UNLESS, it is a life or death situation if you break a bone in a fight (and feel it) and don't stop - you're an idiot. If it was for my life or that of my children and felt that I would be dead even if I stopped - then that is the only time I would honestly say I would continue.

10-14-2005, 02:49 AM	#10 (permalink)
Kotaro Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 40	Today I sparred and took a heavy hit to the nose. It didn't break but it bled pretty bad. The weird thing is, I didn't even realize it was bleeding until the round ended and my trainer asked to wipe it off. I think that in the heat of situations like a fight your body naturally overrides pain to an extent so that you can focus more on what may be a life and death situation. I've never broken my nose before, and I'm not looking forward to it. When you break your nose, can it generally be placed back into its normal position? I'm more worried about having a crooked nose for the rest of my life then just the pain of breaking it.

10-14-2005, 09:18 PM	#12 (permalink)
shaolin-warrior Premiere Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 414	They reset my nose when i was a kid but it was wasn't a brutal break. you cant tell, it's pretty straight.

10-15-2005, 04:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
SamuraiGuy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,865	hmmm... It really depends I guess.... While rolling I was mounted and another person was thrown and I basically saw them do a spinning ... crescent kick.. lol or something... with their shin coming right down on my face.... my nose hurt like a mother... wasnt broken though.. well dont think so... anyway... it hurt alot but I kept on rolling... Another time... a guy tried to do a choke from the mount... and instead of bringing his forearms across my throat they went across myf ace... he fucking crushed my nose and it hurt so much... I tapped so fast... the pain of getting kicked wasnt enough to make me want to quit at all.. but the crushing of the nose... man that sucked... guess it depends.. dont think I'd stop fighting/rolling (competition/mma fight) if I had a broken nose, in a street fight I know I wouldnt cause... prolly just break something else if I give up.. __________________ "a few User CP's that are pretty significant ones(like a BoarSpear or SamuraiGuy one). " - GracieHunter I choke people, I dont poke people. -- Me Were you born to resist or be abused? I swear I'll never give in, I refuse. -- Foo Fighters I want a girl that spends more time on her back than Royce Gracie. I'll knee you in the face like your name was Josh Koschek -- Me

10-16-2005, 08:50 AM	#14 (permalink)
Oraenor Premiere Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oz/Down Under (aka Hell) Posts: 543	When you think about it, there is a sadistical love that a martial artist embraces. He loves the pain and brings him pleasure in doing so as he understands the hardships that must be endured. __________________ America's solution to birth control- "Lets start a war!"

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