Suffering - Page 2

treelizard · 01-13-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

The post wasn't related to any specific event or person, but as a conceptual idea to apply to many events and situations.

Tree your response was first one to discredit my attempts at helping a friend (which I admit could be taken in a humorous context) and your second response paints a picture of me as having a hidden agenda.

So to clear up any misconceptions, I'll volunteer the circumstances about the friend I responded to Mike about:

This woman has been my friend for over 17 years.

She and her best friend and me and one of my best friends used to walk home from school together.

We were both swimmers in middle school and for a little while in highschool; I helped her get her first job when she turned 16. I was also there for her 5 years ago when her fiance at the time called off their engagement.

I've been her confidant at times and she has been mine. Plus her mom is a good cook and helped feed this growing belly as a teenager

At times I've been like a big brother to her - so I have a great deal of respect for her; I care about her.

While its not my responsibility or duty, I am helping her get back some of her lost self-image after a long conversation. The only thing I've done for her was remind her what she has to do to go where she wants to be. The honey-bee sting analogy is a good reminder.

So what do I have to gain?

Intangibles. I get to see her happy and that makes me happy. This isn't the first time I've done this for a friend.

Suprised?

I know, I know guys are still jerks...

I don't think guys are jerks, I think YOU are a jerk.

And I still think you should tell your "friends" to see real therapists.

I don't know your particular situation, but in general when people tell me they want to "help their long-time close friends regain their self-confidence and help" I think their friends would be better served by real professionals than by their "friends." A professional, in addition to being objective, would also have a good deal of training to be able to recognize and address any problems instead of doing a quick survey over the internet. People who think they are merely trying to selfishly help their friends with their life and problems more often than not are all the while imagining the payoff for their good deeds once their friend recognizes how great they are. Whether they admit it to themselves or others or not.

Tom Yum · 01-13-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

I don't think guys are jerks, I think YOU are a jerk.

.

......................

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

I don't know your particular situation, but in general when people tell me they want to "help their long-time close friends regain their self-confidence and help" I think their friends would be better served by real professionals than by their "friends." A professional, in addition to being objective, would also have a good deal of training to be able to recognize and address any problems instead of doing a quick survey over the internet. People who think they are merely trying to selfishly help their friends with their life and problems more often than not are all the while imagining the payoff for their good deeds once their friend recognizes how great they are. Whether they admit it to themselves or others or not.

The world revolves around you, Tree.

And we're all just part of it.

treelizard · 01-13-2007, 12:18 PM

You're proving my point.

Tom Yum · 01-13-2007, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

You're proving my point.

Your topic isn't worth one

But other ladies topics are

treelizard · 01-13-2007, 12:22 PM

http://www.kidshealth.org/kid/feel_b...therapist.html

Tom Yum · 01-13-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

http://www.kidshealth.org/kid/feel_b...therapist.html

Personal referral you've turned to, I assume.

treelizard · 01-13-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Personal referral, I assume.

My last one for you to provide your friends with:
http://www.psychpage.com/family/library/angry.html

Tom Yum · 01-13-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

My last one for you:
http://www.psychpage.com/family/library/angry.html

I appreciate your personal referrals of online psychological help, but I really think you should see a real therapist

Tom Yum · 01-13-2007, 12:41 PM

Tree, all things set aside in this post, I think your original idea is a valid point and yes it is a good one

The issue at hand doesn't require her to pay $250 per hour for someone to agree with her, its simpler than that.

Update: She's already started doing what she knew she needed to in the first place.

Now, back to the original post. And in all seriousness, what do you make of suffering? Its meaning? Reasons for it?

treelizard · 01-13-2007, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I appreciate your personal referrals of online psychological help, but I really think you should see a real therapist

I don't need any help regaining my self-confidence and health, but if I did need help, I'd be more likely to go to a professional than to ask people over the internet.

As far as suffering, Kahlil Gibran said "Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” And Rumi wrote a beautiful poem called "Grapes of My Body" that talks about suffering in a whole new light: "The grapes of my body can only become wine after the winemaker tramples me. I surrender my spirit like grapes to His trampling." But I also think suffering for the sake of suffering is stupid. And anyone who says other people haven't suffered enough needs to get over that... I think it was C.P. Estes who said that there's a potential trap in identifying with who we were in the most terrible times of our lives. It creates a limiting mindset. It's not good to base your identity on what you lost and gained during bad times, you need to go beyond that stage (and not wish it on others.) One of my herb teachers was talking about the drought one year and he talked about how a little adversity in a tree's life, just like in a man's life, could make it stronger, but too much could weaken them. Makes sense. So I think it's okay to reduce stress and suffering... And I think a lot of suffering is self-imposed, anyway.

That's it for now.

Tom Yum · 01-14-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

As far as suffering, Kahlil Gibran said "Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” And Rumi wrote a beautiful poem called "Grapes of My Body" that talks about suffering in a whole new light: "The grapes of my body can only become wine after the winemaker tramples me. I surrender my spirit like grapes to His trampling." But I also think suffering for the sake of suffering is stupid. And anyone who says other people haven't suffered enough needs to get over that... I think it was C.P. Estes who said that there's a potential trap in identifying with who we were in the most terrible times of our lives. It creates a limiting mindset. It's not good to base your identity on what you lost and gained during bad times, you need to go beyond that stage (and not wish it on others.) One of my herb teachers was talking about the drought one year and he talked about how a little adversity in a tree's life, just like in a man's life, could make it stronger, but too much could weaken them. Makes sense. So I think it's okay to reduce stress and suffering... And I think a lot of suffering is self-imposed, anyway.

That's it for now.

As I mentioned before, it was a conversation that I heard that brought this topic up which made me think about the topic itself.

Your grape analogy is nice, Tree. And I agree alot of suffering is self-imposed; we can chose how we will feel and what we will do.

I like the coal -> diamond analogy as well.

Heat and pressure on a sorry lump of coal create some of the most beautiful and toughest substances in the world. Even then, the sparkle that puts a smile in some woman's eye is caused by little imperfections on the surface.

Anyhow, some of the workouts we did last year involved suffering in terms of physical pain and mental tenacity - the product being improved physical health, energy, alertness etc.

Tom Yum · 01-14-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

People who think they are merely trying to selfishly help their friends with their life and problems more often than not are all the while imagining the payoff for their good deeds once their friend recognizes how great they are. Whether they admit it to themselves or others or not.

Does this sound like you?

You would never give without the expectations of receiving something directly beneficial whether tangible or intangible

and

Selfless giving is probably "silly" in your opinion without the expectation of getting something in return.

I give most of the time because I can make a difference and most of the time I don't ask for anything in return.

I don't ask for rent when I let a needy friend stay for a while, nor do I ask for grocery moneys when I cook for them. I don't take tax deductions when I make small donations since the money is theirs when I hand it over and neither do I need to make them public. If someone needs a job, I'll try my best to help them out even if its out of my areas of work.

Sure my friends jab at me and make fun of me now and then, sometimes they turn on you but as a friend, they know when the chips are down and everyone else has left, I might be the last one standing. Sometimes its frightening...

What kind of friend are you, Tree?

I'm not challenging you here ; people can be friends in different ways.

treelizard · 01-14-2007, 02:56 PM

I'm a good enough friend to realize when somebody would be better served discussing their problems with a paid professional than relying on internet surveys....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

What kind of friend are you, Tree?

treelizard · 01-14-2007, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Does this sound like you?

You would never give without the expectations of receiving something directly beneficial whether tangible or intangible

and

Selfless giving is probably "silly" in your opinion without the expectation of getting something in return.

No, I don't think selfless giving is silly. I am, however, astute enough to realize that many people who claim to be giving selflessly often have other motives.

Referring someone to a professional is sometimes the selfless thing you can do. Letting your homeless friends move in for a while, cooking for them and giving them money can be extremely selfish and often doesn't help the person. I had a good friend who was getting kicked out of yet another apartment and not working who wanted to crash on my couch for a while, and I told him no because he wasn't doing anything to get out of his situation. He wasn't even on food stamps or taking care of his medical problems. So I told him no, and now he is in school and working full-time again. Voila. I think I helped him more that way, and by referring him to people that could help him (free clinics, places that were hiring, the food stamp office, etc.)

Tom Yum · 01-14-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

I'm a good enough friend to realize when somebody would be better served discussing their problems with a paid professional than relying on internet surveys....

Here you go projecting assumptions before really engaging the topic or getting more circumstances about the situation.

01-13-2007, 12:18 PM	#18 (permalink)
treelizard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: the desert Posts: 3,404 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	You're proving my point. __________________ http://www.dirttime.org http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

01-13-2007, 12:22 PM	#20 (permalink)
treelizard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: the desert Posts: 3,404 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	http://www.kidshealth.org/kid/feel_b...therapist.html __________________ http://www.dirttime.org http://morewomeninmma.blogspot.com

01-13-2007, 12:41 PM	#24 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,220 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tree, all things set aside in this post, I think your original idea is a valid point and yes it is a good one The issue at hand doesn't require her to pay $250 per hour for someone to agree with her, its simpler than that. Update: She's already started doing what she knew she needed to in the first place. Now, back to the original post. And in all seriousness, what do you make of suffering? Its meaning? Reasons for it? __________________ The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. Slow is fast; fast is slow. Love it, leave it or fix it. Last edited by Tom Yum; 01-13-2007 at 03:19 PM.

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