Suffering

Tom Yum · 01-09-2007, 05:50 PM

What does suffering mean? And what is its purpose?

Here's something I covered from a Bible study a few years back:

Romans 5:3-5
“Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope, and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us.”

So in some sense, we look at suffering as something that molds our character and produces hope.

At the same time, some of our human nature wishes to cause suffering on people or individuals because we dislike them, not as a form of correcting another in Christ.

Our response to others suffering is either one of respect or of imposed degradation.

Many things can cause suffering - physical or emotional - so I ask, without truly knowing details of other's lives, how can we tell if one has suffered and therefore developed this kind of hope?

Can hope come without suffering?

Mike Brewer · 01-11-2007, 11:57 AM

What a Buddhist-like question, Tom!

This sounds like it could be an interesting discussion, so I'll jump in. I believe we as human beings are made stronger by adversity. I also believe that's what sets warriors apart from society at large. We seek and confront adversity in the form of self-denial, hard work, and facing our own fears and weaknesses. While suffering can be defined a thousand ways, I think the most important definition (and maybe the most pragmatic) is that suffering is the natural state of affairs in this life in some measure or another. The buddhists use a term that refers to an out of balance wheel. The term is "dukha" and it is often read to mean "suffering." I like the "out of balance wheel" explanation more. A wheel out of balance still rolls. It's still functional. It's just not totally comfortable. Life is perpetually in that state. So what's left for man to do is accept it as the natural state of things and live in the reality of it rather than trying to put an end to it. I'm reminded of the story about the beehive and the honey.

Some people (the majority, I'd guess) see the beehive and they want the honey. They want what tastes good, what looks good - what's sweet in life. But when they reach in to get it, they get stung. Now, since all they were thinking about was the honey and not the bees, they freak out at the pain. "Why did this have to happen to me?" they lament. In other words, most people see suffering as an unfortunate condition completely unrelated to their own actions.

Other people see the bees, and they decide it's more important to avoid the pain of the stings than to get the honey. They suppress their desires for the honey, and so they avoid the stings. But in so doing, they miss out on the sweetness of life. They justify their approach and say that it is better to go without than to suffer. These are the people you'll hear talking about never getting one's hopes up, and never trusting too much. They are safe, and by being safe, they've created a whole new kind of suffering for themselves.

Warriors see the beehive. They know that the honey will be golden and sweet. They see the bees. They know that the bees will sting to protect the honey. So they go after life's rewards, and they accept that a little pain is part of the price we pay to get them. They feel the stings, but because they chose their course and accepted the price, the stings do not affect them the same way. They are not willing to live without the sweetness that this life can hold, and so they are willing to choose some measure of suffering to get there. They understand that both the suffering and the reward were the result of their own action, and they own that. Consequently, you don't hear them asking "why me?" You see them enjoying their rewards and getting past the suffering it took to get there.

So in the end, suffering is not only what allows us to overcome ourselves and make our own potential into reality, but it is also what balances the rewards in life. It's what makes anything worth having. It's what keeps things exclusive. It's what allows our lessons to have meaning. And it is the natural state of everything in some degree or another. As it relates to your question, I think hope can come without suffering, but it will almost always end in suffering when it does. This would be the people who hoped for honey but didn't see the bees. At that point, it either causes the person to suffer and overcome that suffering, or it turns them into an isolationist that would rather forego the rewards than suffer again. We can judge only by the example others set with their lives and their endeavors. That's why soldiers, amrtial artists, police, firefighters, medics, and many others so immediately garner respect. Their choice of vocation is evidence that they are willing to face suffering. We go by their example, by their path.

Just my take.

Tom Yum · 01-11-2007, 01:18 PM

Thanks for such an insightful and flowing response, Mike!

I figured that Buddhism would have a really good answer to this question as this is one of the core topics. Its a beautiful religion.

I'm helping a long-time, close friend of mine regain her self-confidence and her health. I'm going to use this analogy, not only for her but for myself as well.

Any others out there have a response?

treelizard · 01-11-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I'm helping a long-time, close friend of mine regain her self-confidence and her health. I'm going to use this analogy, not only for her but for myself as well.

Any others out there have a response?

Yeah. Tell her to go to a real therapist.

Tom Yum · 01-11-2007, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

Yeah. Tell her to go to a real therapist.

I would send her to you Tree, but she's my friend...

treelizard · 01-11-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

I would send her to you Tree, but she's my friend...

I'm not a real therapist either--but at least I wouldn't have any ulterior motives.

Tom Yum · 01-11-2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

but at least I wouldn't have any ulterior motives.

Of course you wouldn't.....

uh huh.....

.....

treelizard · 01-11-2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Of course you wouldn't.....

Since I don't know her (and have read too much Eric Bernes) I'm much less likely to be using the "I'm only trying to help you" line than you are.

Tom Yum · 01-11-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

Since I don't know her (and have read too much Eric Bernes) .

Blasphemer! Tree lizard knows everything!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

I'm much less likely to be using the "I'm only trying to help you" line than you are.

You're lying.

Tom Yum · 01-11-2007, 04:02 PM

Another question:

Can you look at someone, after hearing them speak or seeing the way they carry themselves or behave and judge whether they have God-like hope produced from suffering?

I would say for example, that a young woman who had a child out of wedlock and raised her/him on her own has gone through some suffering that has produced character and hope.

Someone who has survived a childhood of extreme discipline, abuse or trauma has gone through some suffering that has produced character and hope.

Someone who started their own company from the ground up has experienced some suffering that has produced character and hope.

Someone who came from poverty, 3rd world or being homeless and pulled themselves out of it - same thing.

Someone who has been through a program like yours, Mike - same thing.

And many, many others.

So without knowing these circumstances, can we really see this hope produced from suffering?

When people say "This person hasn't suffered enough..." are we really projecting our own assumptions on people to make ourselves feel better?

I'm excluding circumstances where this phrase is meant as a means of building up by tearing down.

treelizard · 01-11-2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

When we say "This person hasn't suffered enough"

That's a really awful thing to say.

Tom Yum · 01-11-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treelizard

That's a really awful thing to say.

I agree with you, Tree.

I use "we" because every now and then, these words are spoken by many different people.

In other words, its a human experience.

Mike Brewer · 01-11-2007, 11:28 PM

This goes to the root of what you mean when you say "God." If God is indeed almighty, then it's He that decides suffering. When we know better than He does about the lives of others, we can make assumptions. Until then, yes, it is all 100% personal perception.

And if God is to you what I think He is, then there is always hope for anyone, yes?

eXcessiveForce · 01-12-2007, 12:04 AM

Usually when you hear the phrase someone has not suffered enough it is referring to a personal power issue.

Adversity is a motivator for change and behavior modification. At some point the idea is that people will see that their situation is intolerable and take action.

Thinking does not solve suffering, action does. Taking steps to change your situation.

Often people are not open to help, or change until they have reach a critical mass. Until then they may still deny the problems or their responsibility for them, or they may simply reject everything and wallow in pity. But once they suffer enough they often will become more receptive.

eXcessiveForce · 01-12-2007, 12:06 AM

Adversity (Suffering) is the anvil on which the human spirit is forged. It is only through repeated stress that one can become hardened and honed to a sharp edge.

01-09-2007, 05:50 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,179	Suffering What does suffering mean? And what is its purpose? Here's something I covered from a Bible study a few years back: Romans 5:3-5 “Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope, and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us.” So in some sense, we look at suffering as something that molds our character and produces hope. At the same time, some of our human nature wishes to cause suffering on people or individuals because we dislike them, not as a form of correcting another in Christ. Our response to others suffering is either one of respect or of imposed degradation. Many things can cause suffering - physical or emotional - so I ask, without truly knowing details of other's lives, how can we tell if one has suffered and therefore developed this kind of hope? Can hope come without suffering? __________________ The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. Slow is fast; fast is slow. Love it, leave it or fix it. Last edited by Tom Yum; 01-09-2007 at 06:23 PM.

01-11-2007, 01:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,179	Thanks for such an insightful and flowing response, Mike! I figured that Buddhism would have a really good answer to this question as this is one of the core topics. Its a beautiful religion. I'm helping a long-time, close friend of mine regain her self-confidence and her health. I'm going to use this analogy, not only for her but for myself as well. Any others out there have a response? __________________ The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. Slow is fast; fast is slow. Love it, leave it or fix it.

01-11-2007, 04:02 PM	#10 (permalink)
Tom Yum Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Here and there. Posts: 11,179	Another question: Can you look at someone, after hearing them speak or seeing the way they carry themselves or behave and judge whether they have God-like hope produced from suffering? I would say for example, that a young woman who had a child out of wedlock and raised her/him on her own has gone through some suffering that has produced character and hope. Someone who has survived a childhood of extreme discipline, abuse or trauma has gone through some suffering that has produced character and hope. Someone who started their own company from the ground up has experienced some suffering that has produced character and hope. Someone who came from poverty, 3rd world or being homeless and pulled themselves out of it - same thing. Someone who has been through a program like yours, Mike - same thing. And many, many others. So without knowing these circumstances, can we really see this hope produced from suffering? When people say "This person hasn't suffered enough..." are we really projecting our own assumptions on people to make ourselves feel better? I'm excluding circumstances where this phrase is meant as a means of building up by tearing down. __________________ The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. Slow is fast; fast is slow. Love it, leave it or fix it. Last edited by Tom Yum; 01-11-2007 at 04:48 PM.

01-12-2007, 12:04 AM	#14 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,663	Usually when you hear the phrase someone has not suffered enough it is referring to a personal power issue. Adversity is a motivator for change and behavior modification. At some point the idea is that people will see that their situation is intolerable and take action. Thinking does not solve suffering, action does. Taking steps to change your situation. Often people are not open to help, or change until they have reach a critical mass. Until then they may still deny the problems or their responsibility for them, or they may simply reject everything and wallow in pity. But once they suffer enough they often will become more receptive. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

01-12-2007, 12:06 AM	#15 (permalink)
eXcessiveForce Excessive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,663	Adversity (Suffering) is the anvil on which the human spirit is forged. It is only through repeated stress that one can become hardened and honed to a sharp edge. __________________ eXcessiveFORCE. If you must use force, make it excessive.

01-11-2007, 11:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
Mike Brewer Moderate Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,094	What a Buddhist-like question, Tom! This sounds like it could be an interesting discussion, so I'll jump in. I believe we as human beings are made stronger by adversity. I also believe that's what sets warriors apart from society at large. We seek and confront adversity in the form of self-denial, hard work, and facing our own fears and weaknesses. While suffering can be defined a thousand ways, I think the most important definition (and maybe the most pragmatic) is that suffering is the natural state of affairs in this life in some measure or another. The buddhists use a term that refers to an out of balance wheel. The term is "dukha" and it is often read to mean "suffering." I like the "out of balance wheel" explanation more. A wheel out of balance still rolls. It's still functional. It's just not totally comfortable. Life is perpetually in that state. So what's left for man to do is accept it as the natural state of things and live in the reality of it rather than trying to put an end to it. I'm reminded of the story about the beehive and the honey. Some people (the majority, I'd guess) see the beehive and they want the honey. They want what tastes good, what looks good - what's sweet in life. But when they reach in to get it, they get stung. Now, since all they were thinking about was the honey and not the bees, they freak out at the pain. "Why did this have to happen to me?" they lament. In other words, most people see suffering as an unfortunate condition completely unrelated to their own actions. Other people see the bees, and they decide it's more important to avoid the pain of the stings than to get the honey. They suppress their desires for the honey, and so they avoid the stings. But in so doing, they miss out on the sweetness of life. They justify their approach and say that it is better to go without than to suffer. These are the people you'll hear talking about never getting one's hopes up, and never trusting too much. They are safe, and by being safe, they've created a whole new kind of suffering for themselves. Warriors see the beehive. They know that the honey will be golden and sweet. They see the bees. They know that the bees will sting to protect the honey. So they go after life's rewards, and they accept that a little pain is part of the price we pay to get them. They feel the stings, but because they chose their course and accepted the price, the stings do not affect them the same way. They are not willing to live without the sweetness that this life can hold, and so they are willing to choose some measure of suffering to get there. They understand that both the suffering and the reward were the result of their own action, and they own that. Consequently, you don't hear them asking "why me?" You see them enjoying their rewards and getting past the suffering it took to get there. So in the end, suffering is not only what allows us to overcome ourselves and make our own potential into reality, but it is also what balances the rewards in life. It's what makes anything worth having. It's what keeps things exclusive. It's what allows our lessons to have meaning. And it is the natural state of everything in some degree or another. As it relates to your question, I think hope can come without suffering, but it will almost always end in suffering when it does. This would be the people who hoped for honey but didn't see the bees. At that point, it either causes the person to suffer and overcome that suffering, or it turns them into an isolationist that would rather forego the rewards than suffer again. We can judge only by the example others set with their lives and their endeavors. That's why soldiers, amrtial artists, police, firefighters, medics, and many others so immediately garner respect. Their choice of vocation is evidence that they are willing to face suffering. We go by their example, by their path. Just my take.

01-11-2007, 11:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
Mike Brewer Moderate Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,094	This goes to the root of what you mean when you say "God." If God is indeed almighty, then it's He that decides suffering. When we know better than He does about the lives of others, we can make assumptions. Until then, yes, it is all 100% personal perception. And if God is to you what I think He is, then there is always hope for anyone, yes?

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