Knife Training

dannyjian · 09-06-2002, 09:02 AM

do you do it or not do you train with rubber,wood or a real blade.
a simple question to iron out the real people who just mite no something . about it .
thanx ........dan

Szczepankiewicz · 09-12-2002, 09:07 AM

We train with rubberized knives, sticks, and other implements of destruction.

Our primary focus is how to defend against. In the upper ranks you learn how to use.

Brokenmace · 09-12-2002, 12:07 PM

It is our (my kwoon's) philosophy that in order to properly defend against a knife (or any other attack), one must understand how to fight with a knife (or any attack). The reason is that a proper edge awareness, and the realization of the myriad applications of a knife and its injurous effects cannot be grasped unless you spar with a knife (i.e. markers, short sticks, trainers).

If someone simply shows you how to avoid being cut, this isn't enough. Proper respect for the edge must be ingrained into the psyche. It is easy to say "I don't want to get cut." But it is hard to believe, deep down, that your life depends on avoiding such a small object (it could be a Swiss Army knife). It is even harder to realize that, once cut, your chances of escaping without serious consequences reduce dramatically. The body goes into shock quickly, and your hands become slick with blood.

You must understand where the major arteries are, and then realize how easy it is to cut them with a simple, quick swipe of the blade. After all, if you can do it, anyone can, and if you never practice it your subconscious may tell you it a thing needing skill. It isn't.

This is the glaring error in most Aikido dojos (though not all). They don't learn how to properly punch, and yet expect to defend against a punch. It is foolish. A real punch is very different than an uke's punch, and a real knife attack is very different from a slow motion "demo."

dannyjian · 09-13-2002, 08:14 AM

i agree with all thanx for haveing a brain.
yes not many Aikido people no how to punch or how to duck/weave such a thing. Aikibujutsu/Aikijujutsu a bit diferent .

this actually happend over hear

a teacher who bought his black belt from a shop to start a school was training with knives [real blades] he gave one to his student who had never picked one up before and said ok ill now teach you to defend .
as the student lunged tward him the teacher grasped hold of the student's hand trying to throw the student passing the blade across his own line he sliced his neck [not fatil] this is why insurance is so bad over hear .
It is good to see that there is still some people who have respect for the blade & train in such a way i applord boath of you for your method & understanding of the real world. O.S.U

yours in budo ...........dan

09-13-2002, 08:33 AM

"This is the glaring error in most Aikido dojos (though not all). They don't learn how to properly punch, and yet expect to defend against a punch. It is foolish. A real punch is very different than an uke's punch, and a real knife attack is very different from a slow motion "demo."

HOW DARE YOU! That was my point and you argued so vehemently against it!!!!!!!

But I will let you off, now that I have taught you the truth.....

dannyjian · 09-13-2002, 08:37 AM

Thank you master

yours in budo...........dan

Sean J · 10-10-2002, 12:59 PM

The problem with Aikido is that it was originally intended as a secondary means of defense against other guys with samurai swords. A long blade, especially a twohanded one, moves differently and does not change directions as fast as an empty hand or a hand holding a short blade. A good aikido-man (but a dogmatic one) has e better chance of defending against somebody with a base-ball bat than against a tactical folder.

Kingston · 12-24-2002, 06:59 PM

i think for training it is best to use the plastic, unsharp metal, or wood knifes, rubber mite bend a little, and you wont get the realization that you could have got hurt there if it was a real knife. its also harder to react to the knife hitting your body.

it is also important to be aware of where the knifes edge is, if you ever want to make contact with the blade for dissarming reasons.

i good thing about knife fighting (never thought id hear myself say that), is that your opponent most likely will concentrate on the knife and wont be aware of the rest of your body....its not the knife thats trying to hurt you, its the person holding the knife.

later on you should be confident enough to train with real knifes (if your lucky enough to train long/hard enough to become that good). but untill then the only goal of a knife fight should be to come out alive.

using semi-sharp knifes is good, still get scrapes sometimes...adds a little pain, always good to correct mistakes.

then again, i cant knife fight/defend for shit, i would rather run....
but i have seen and heard somethings about it, and have some limited experience as far as training goes

just one mans opinion

thanks..

Sean J · 12-25-2002, 06:02 PM

Sounds OK with the semisharp knives.

What kind of protective eye-wear do you use?

ryanhall · 12-25-2002, 08:14 PM

Quote:

The problem with Aikido is that it was originally intended as a secondary means of defense against other guys with samurai swords. A long blade, especially a twohanded one, moves differently and does not change directions as fast as an empty hand or a hand holding a short blade. A good aikido-man (but a dogmatic one) has e better chance of defending against somebody with a base-ball bat than against a tactical folder.

Actually, Aikido was developed very recently (i.e. in the 20th century). You are referring to Ju-Jitsu.

Kingston · 12-25-2002, 08:41 PM

no eye protection.....
if your not ready to defend a knife attack to the face (and your using sharp knifes) then your partner should know that....

if your training any hits should be to teach...not to mame, though they may hurt.

i was reading a little more into the issue, the more real the knife seems, as well as a realistic attack from your partner is good.

the way iv done it at my "dojo" if you would call it that, is spontanious attacks by the knife holder...for beginers they use wood/plastic knifes....

later on you would use real blades....you can also keep in mind the type of knife the person is using and you can get a better idea of how that person will use it against you.....

it stressed that the knife work should be as realistic as possible.

and of course you would only work at a speed/difficulty level that you are comfortable with at that time.....trust in your partner is also key, it will allow you to advance a little quicker if you trust the person with the knife.

once again im a novice when it comes to knife training/fighting but i think what iv said is fair, if anyone has another idea, or corrections to what iv said please tell me,thanks.

ryanhall · 12-25-2002, 11:47 PM

Quote:

later on you would use real blades....you can also keep in mind the type of knife the person is using and you can get a better idea of how that person will use it against you.....

Real blades, huh? You must have no fear of the American legal system (if America is your country of residence). Type of knife? Any real knife defense does not depend upon the variety of the blade being used (unless it's a sword or a machette) or the type of grip the attacker has on it.

Kingston · 12-26-2002, 01:52 AM

no, im not talking about the style of knife defence based on knife type, im saying knife type controls (even if just a little bit) how the attacker mite use that knife, for example thrust defence is a different action then slash defence....its about getting the mental edge, and making the attacker wonder how the hell you knew what he was going to do.

the wieght of the knife can be a factor, blade length, some are two sided. if it;s not clear already, the technique of defence doesn't change depending on knife type, or grip of the oponent, but the style of attack definately can.

i live in canada, not sure about the legal aspect of knife training, but i dont think there is a problem with sparring with live blades.

once again i only know what iv heard....i dont have any "real" experience.

thanks.

ryanhall · 12-27-2002, 10:10 PM

Kingston,

Bit of a misunderstanding

. You're right in saying that the type of knife can make a difference in the usage (i.e. a short blade is better for slashing, while a longer one is more suited for stabs/thrusts). My point was that it shouldn't matter because you should attack the knifer immediately. By that, I literally mean move towards him/her with the serious intent to harm them. This is desirable because:

1) Creates the proper offensive mindset that is crucial
2) Can "psyche out" the knifer--he holds all the cards, yet youy attack HIM
3) Prevents you from entering a defensive flow that almost invariably WILL kill you
4) Stops you from freezing with shock/fear

About the legal comment: in the USA, you would be signing some VERY heavy waivers before getting into any of that. People can and will sue for ANYTHING, and a judge would convict you so fast your head would spin. I'm a little passionate about knife defense in particular because I have seen too many times what a blade can do to a person.

Hope I made myself more clear,

Ryan

Kingston · 12-27-2002, 10:58 PM

well, i dont disagree with any of that...

accualy there is one thing

defencive flow aint all bad, it could allow you to run latter, and not get cuaght up in the attacking flow, wich can also kill you.
dont think it as a "defencive" act, think of it as "controling" your attacker

then again who cares, he cant stab you if he cant reach you

RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!

heh, just my humble opinion

09-06-2002, 09:02 AM	#1 (permalink)
dannyjian Novice Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: AUSTRALIA Posts: 29	Knife Training do you do it or not do you train with rubber,wood or a real blade. a simple question to iron out the real people who just mite no something . about it . thanx ........dan __________________ stay well friend

09-12-2002, 12:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
Brokenmace Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 259	It is our (my kwoon's) philosophy that in order to properly defend against a knife (or any other attack), one must understand how to fight with a knife (or any attack). The reason is that a proper edge awareness, and the realization of the myriad applications of a knife and its injurous effects cannot be grasped unless you spar with a knife (i.e. markers, short sticks, trainers). If someone simply shows you how to avoid being cut, this isn't enough. Proper respect for the edge must be ingrained into the psyche. It is easy to say "I don't want to get cut." But it is hard to believe, deep down, that your life depends on avoiding such a small object (it could be a Swiss Army knife). It is even harder to realize that, once cut, your chances of escaping without serious consequences reduce dramatically. The body goes into shock quickly, and your hands become slick with blood. You must understand where the major arteries are, and then realize how easy it is to cut them with a simple, quick swipe of the blade. After all, if you can do it, anyone can, and if you never practice it your subconscious may tell you it a thing needing skill. It isn't. This is the glaring error in most Aikido dojos (though not all). They don't learn how to properly punch, and yet expect to defend against a punch. It is foolish. A real punch is very different than an uke's punch, and a real knife attack is very different from a slow motion "demo." __________________ A broken mace is still a weapon.

09-13-2002, 08:14 AM	#4 (permalink)
dannyjian Novice Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: AUSTRALIA Posts: 29	knife i agree with all thanx for haveing a brain. yes not many Aikido people no how to punch or how to duck/weave such a thing. Aikibujutsu/Aikijujutsu a bit diferent . this actually happend over hear a teacher who bought his black belt from a shop to start a school was training with knives [real blades] he gave one to his student who had never picked one up before and said ok ill now teach you to defend . as the student lunged tward him the teacher grasped hold of the student's hand trying to throw the student passing the blade across his own line he sliced his neck [not fatil] this is why insurance is so bad over hear . It is good to see that there is still some people who have respect for the blade & train in such a way i applord boath of you for your method & understanding of the real world. O.S.U yours in budo ...........dan __________________ stay well friend

09-13-2002, 08:37 AM	#6 (permalink)
dannyjian Novice Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: AUSTRALIA Posts: 29	Knife Thank you master yours in budo...........dan __________________ stay well friend

10-10-2002, 12:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sean J Novice Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 79	The problem with Aikido is that it was originally intended as a secondary means of defense against other guys with samurai swords. A long blade, especially a twohanded one, moves differently and does not change directions as fast as an empty hand or a hand holding a short blade. A good aikido-man (but a dogmatic one) has e better chance of defending against somebody with a base-ball bat than against a tactical folder. __________________ Sean J

09-12-2002, 09:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
Szczepankiewicz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Meridian, ID, USA Posts: 4,109	We train with rubberized knives, sticks, and other implements of destruction. Our primary focus is how to defend against. In the upper ranks you learn how to use.

09-13-2002, 08:33 AM	#5 (permalink)
Bri Thai Guest Posts: n/a	"This is the glaring error in most Aikido dojos (though not all). They don't learn how to properly punch, and yet expect to defend against a punch. It is foolish. A real punch is very different than an uke's punch, and a real knife attack is very different from a slow motion "demo." HOW DARE YOU! That was my point and you argued so vehemently against it!!!!!!! But I will let you off, now that I have taught you the truth.....

12-24-2002, 06:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kingston Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 482	here is what i think... i think for training it is best to use the plastic, unsharp metal, or wood knifes, rubber mite bend a little, and you wont get the realization that you could have got hurt there if it was a real knife. its also harder to react to the knife hitting your body. it is also important to be aware of where the knifes edge is, if you ever want to make contact with the blade for dissarming reasons. i good thing about knife fighting (never thought id hear myself say that), is that your opponent most likely will concentrate on the knife and wont be aware of the rest of your body....its not the knife thats trying to hurt you, its the person holding the knife. later on you should be confident enough to train with real knifes (if your lucky enough to train long/hard enough to become that good). but untill then the only goal of a knife fight should be to come out alive. using semi-sharp knifes is good, still get scrapes sometimes...adds a little pain, always good to correct mistakes. then again, i cant knife fight/defend for shit, i would rather run.... but i have seen and heard somethings about it, and have some limited experience as far as training goes just one mans opinion thanks..

12-25-2002, 06:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sean J Novice Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 79	Sounds OK with the semisharp knives. What kind of protective eye-wear do you use? __________________ Sean J

12-25-2002, 08:41 PM	#11 (permalink)
Kingston Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 482	no eye protection..... if your not ready to defend a knife attack to the face (and your using sharp knifes) then your partner should know that.... if your training any hits should be to teach...not to mame, though they may hurt. i was reading a little more into the issue, the more real the knife seems, as well as a realistic attack from your partner is good. the way iv done it at my "dojo" if you would call it that, is spontanious attacks by the knife holder...for beginers they use wood/plastic knifes.... later on you would use real blades....you can also keep in mind the type of knife the person is using and you can get a better idea of how that person will use it against you..... it stressed that the knife work should be as realistic as possible. and of course you would only work at a speed/difficulty level that you are comfortable with at that time.....trust in your partner is also key, it will allow you to advance a little quicker if you trust the person with the knife. once again im a novice when it comes to knife training/fighting but i think what iv said is fair, if anyone has another idea, or corrections to what iv said please tell me,thanks.

12-26-2002, 01:52 AM	#13 (permalink)
Kingston Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 482	no, im not talking about the style of knife defence based on knife type, im saying knife type controls (even if just a little bit) how the attacker mite use that knife, for example thrust defence is a different action then slash defence....its about getting the mental edge, and making the attacker wonder how the hell you knew what he was going to do. the wieght of the knife can be a factor, blade length, some are two sided. if it;s not clear already, the technique of defence doesn't change depending on knife type, or grip of the oponent, but the style of attack definately can. i live in canada, not sure about the legal aspect of knife training, but i dont think there is a problem with sparring with live blades. once again i only know what iv heard....i dont have any "real" experience. thanks.

12-27-2002, 10:10 PM	#14 (permalink)
ryanhall Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1,247	Kingston, Bit of a misunderstanding. You're right in saying that the type of knife can make a difference in the usage (i.e. a short blade is better for slashing, while a longer one is more suited for stabs/thrusts). My point was that it shouldn't matter because you should attack the knifer immediately. By that, I literally mean move towards him/her with the serious intent to harm them. This is desirable because: 1) Creates the proper offensive mindset that is crucial 2) Can "psyche out" the knifer--he holds all the cards, yet youy attack HIM 3) Prevents you from entering a defensive flow that almost invariably WILL kill you 4) Stops you from freezing with shock/fear About the legal comment: in the USA, you would be signing some VERY heavy waivers before getting into any of that. People can and will sue for ANYTHING, and a judge would convict you so fast your head would spin. I'm a little passionate about knife defense in particular because I have seen too many times what a blade can do to a person. Hope I made myself more clear, Ryan __________________ "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!"

12-27-2002, 10:58 PM	#15 (permalink)
Kingston Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 482	well, i dont disagree with any of that... accualy there is one thing defencive flow aint all bad, it could allow you to run latter, and not get cuaght up in the attacking flow, wich can also kill you. dont think it as a "defencive" act, think of it as "controling" your attacker then again who cares, he cant stab you if he cant reach you RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!! heh, just my humble opinion

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread: