chris davis 200

If you train in the deep stances of karate then when in a real fight you will be able to maintain the strength of posture and alignment in a much higher, more appropriate stance.

In my experience many Karate teachers say that these deep stances are how it is done in a fight. But then in a competition they dance like they have learned nothing. this is not really a very good thing to display to your students.

The deep stances seen in many of the shaolin Kung fu forms and Karate are there to teach you to deal with all stance ranges and give you a good root. this is where the type of stance in Muay thai falls down - because it has not trained in deep stnaces your average MT guy is very open to simplistic throws due to his boyant weight. (that is if you have the skill to get close enough to throw him.)

Also dont take the Karate stances so literally - these are mainly to develop the skills above. They are also not static - you do not stand in one stance and attack - then to the next and defend - or whatever - if is a dynamic exchange of movemnent to obtain superior positioning to your opponent.

Unfortunatley the majority of western teachers have not recognised this and tend to take things a little to literaly with a false view of the real attributes of combat. Hence many of the views regarding Karate here.

You watch a real karate master and they flow from technique to technique with skill. You watch a western 'master' it is like watching a flicker pad of photo's very slowly - stance,move, stance, move.

As long as you adhire to the key principles used in the deep stances when in a more relevant hight of stance you will still have just as strong a stance.

Just some thoughts.
Chris

Stigma

Bah! That's exactly the type of comment that we don't need. People with this kind of mindset shouldnt be allowed to train martial arts, or any other sport they could use to hurt others with for that matter.

Any responsible martial artist uses force as the absolute last resort, when a fight is inevitable and you have nowhere to escape to. Moral issues aside, even with close to perfect technique, and unless you train the "soft" arts of ju-jitsu / wrestling ect, then there is allways a risk of seriously injuring the opponent in the process of defending yourself (or striking first in your case). Thats why the first thing responsible instructors teach new students is that fighting is the last resort. Its not a way to resolve a situation easily just because you "can" beat the agressor easily.

Consider also that in many countries, a person trained in martial arts is often considered by law as "armed" when dealing with legal aftermath, thus you have a lot more responsebility than your unarmed (untrained) opponent, and a lot more at stake. Think before you strike. Only strike first if you are 100% sure that a fight is inevitable, otherwise your inviting violence rather than trying to resolve the situation.

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-Stigma

"Be formless,shapeless... like water. You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle. You put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot."

"Water can flow, or it can crash... Be water my friend."

Stigma

Regarding the topic question, I allways find myself falling into the typical sideways sparring stance (chest sideways 90degrees away from threath, both feet pointing away forward from body, knees very slightly bent, head turned toward threath).

I dont know if this is because ive sparred a great deal or not, but it feels natural, its a relaxed position, i have good balance in it, and i have a wide striking area to react to anything that might come at me. I do it more as an automatic reaction to any unexpected threath rather than a concious choice of stance.

Just how effective that stance is in real life urban fight scenarios is largely untested, since i have experienced few such unwanted fights (luckily). The (very few) serious fights ive been in were all resolved by pinning, improvised wrestling or trained arm/wrist-locks. It just goes to show that you don't have to go on the offence to resolve most situations, and when you do, you can usually use softer means to control the situation. As the trained person, you will allways hold the greater part of the responsebility of the outcome of such situations.

If swallowing your pride to some drunk a**hole is the price to pay for avoiding a violent conflict, then i say its a reasonably one. After all he probably won't even remember you in the morning...

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-Stigma

"Be formless,shapeless... like water. You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle. You put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot."

"Water can flow, or it can crash... Be water my friend."

osopardo

...LOL......

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Le Bear Extraordinaire!
Mike Brewer's 2008 Athleticon Challenge!!!
Pushups Completed: 5 1/2
Situps Completed: Does using my hands count?

Nit

While I agree that a martial art is not effective unless your training is realistic (therefore hard) and would say that it would be short sighted not to look at what other arts do.

University Motto: You can revise for an exam and pass, but only a well learned student has knowledge.

As for fights, fortunately I have been able to avert violence on the street by using my MA training to the highest effect (don't walk into a situation, and when you do run away from it).
However recently I was at a football match, it was a conference league club so there were no barriers, just some netting between us and a lot of brummie thugs and nazis (not typecasting here, this was a group out for hurting and dont reflect the average Wolverhampton fan). About 3/4 of the way through we were charged by them and me and my dad were face to face with 60 odd skin heads in the final stages of posturing - ready for attack. They were doing their best to proke ANY reaction, positive or negative from our supporters.

I had one wanker shouting at me, usual monosyllabic threats.
For once I felt in control though (my pants would have said otherwise). And recognising that we were about to be attacked I stood up, I had about two rows of seats between myself and the *ahem* fans . Knowing that standing up is a threatening movement, but also knowing that I would have the shit beat out of me sitting down I stood and purposefully didn't stand square on, I also avoided eye contact by looking and focusing on what was going on behind the mob (a ruddy great ruck!), I was essentially in natural stance (wado term for one foot slightly ahead of other, head up, relaxed, hand by sides just infront of hips) but by the time the tosser had tried to provoke a reaction something else more promising had distracted him and his mates (the ruddly great ruck behind them). So we were able to leave without incident.

On the way out of the ground we could see the flimsy metal barriers outside being broke down and usual missiles being chucked, I took what weapons I had on me and shared them out with my dad, this included: 1 rolled up newpaper (tight), 1 set of car keys (pointy) and one train drivers key (my dads a train driver) which is essentially a stubby nose breaker. We did not intend to use them, but needed an equaliser if they caught up with us.

Fortunately we got to the car and managed to leave without event.

I found out later that several families (small children included) were beaten up and hospitalised, I wish I were so good at fighting and so invulnerable that I could have protected them. But I'm not a superhero and would probably have ended up a lot worse off if we'd stayed behind.

Some would call this cowardly behaviour, I myself call it good sense.

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Nit

Nit

I was glad to get to the car so quickly, rozzers turned up with two vans, one full of alsations. I swear there was a burns type figure standing back with megaphone "Release the hounds!"

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Nit

shuyun

you'd have to realize that certain stances were maide for fighting others made for training. the horse stance is good for leg training but quite immobile in a fight.

choose a stance that you are comfortable with. i use the low phasic knee bent stance of JKD (same stance in boxing) but that's just me. i guess choose one that fits you. but before doing so take time to analyze how it sets you up for your favorite techniques. (analyze during training just to those who'd like to falme me now. i'm not recommending any deep anlysis during a fight itself). better yet learn to fight with no stance. be stable in all situations. musashi recomends the same stance and walk as we do in everyday life. imagine trying to cat stance on mushy ground or other stances on wet ground.

stances are setups but you must change to suit the situation. one stance is better on one side than on the other so there is really no best stance.

and good for you in sticking to your art. You'd be seen as a prude or old fashioned in sticking with karate but properly applied it can be as progressive as any art. the problem is in the application of the techniques perpetuated in the kata and oral traditions. if you suddenly decide to enter another martial art you will not learn to kick all over again but wyou will be opened up to new ways of doing. Old is not bad, passe is not bad jumping to the new without thinking is just as bad. go ahead do your stances but when it doesn't work change.

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I make it a point to stick around with people smarter than myself. If I learn just 10% of all they know in their fields of expertise I end up becoming smarter than most people.

fanman.

The best thing to do would be to use a relaxed posture. Be peaceful but ready. Extend chi and discourage your opponent from attacking you.

the man with the fan strikes again

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fanman - the man with the fan

Thai Bri

See the video caled "the Fence" by Geoff Thompson. You can get it on his site of www.geoffthompson.com.

It is all about the moments just before a physical confrontaton. How to stand naturally and keep the opponent covered, how to talk and how to attack first if you feel it is necessary.

This is by far the best video on self defence that I have ever seen. Don't get me wrong, it has no impressive looking techniques. But it provides the base upon which all potentially threatening conversations can be managed.

As regards stance during a fight? Well, I have to disagree with the deep stances of Karate. Yes, they probably do help strengthen and loosed up the legs. And maybe western people do take them too literally. But the way you train is the way you react.

You should fight in a balanced and fluid stance. You must be mobile. All this talk of being "rooted" is a fallacy. Trees rarely avoid blows aimed at the trunk. I know its hard to hurt a real tree of course, but they are made of wood whereas we are mere flesh and bone.

If you do things correctly, the fight should be over before the other guy realses it has begun.

Britt

I usually just curl up in a little ball and hold my wallet out at arm's length.

ChunGi

personally, i dont let my attacker know what stance i am in at all, by knowing alot of footwork. your stance also effects waht u can deliver, so get really good at a hardtakedown from both rigth adn left leg back stances and if they are in the same or oppositeatnace as you.

I like to kinda mix up my feet but keep them close to a proper stance, then when i wanna strike i get into stance really quick and deliver the strike as fast and powerful as possible.

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Utmost Respect.

ChunGi

anotehr thing, is make ur first leg strike count casue they wont be expecting it, so usually aim for knockout with ur first leg technique. I like hitting just above the knee, giving the person hte worst charlie horse of there life that sometiems makes them fall down.

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Utmost Respect.

Thai Bri

That is often the best thing!

shuyun

where i come from that is a quick way to get killed. muggers don't take the wallet and go away. muggers in my place injure and kill whether or not the vic is cooperative.

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I make it a point to stick around with people smarter than myself. If I learn just 10% of all they know in their fields of expertise I end up becoming smarter than most people.

Thai Bri

I think he was joking.........