Clinching, are you prepared?

[S.Anucha]

Ok, anyway.... we all should have a good basic knowledge of clinching/grappling, as an example SanShou fighters prefer to throw in clinch and Muay Thai fighters like to strike in clinch, heres a wierd fact I learned. When a Sanshou fighter is going for his throw while in clinch he is leaving himself open for strike from a Muay Thai fighter and when a Muay Thai fighter is going for a strike while defending against a supposed strike attack while in clinch he ALSO leaves himself open for the throw of a Sanshou fighter, so Sanshou clinch stance is great for an attacking Thai clinch and Thai clinch is great for an attacking Sanshou clinch. Ok now that I know that and if I ever come up against a Sanshou fighter I will adopt the defensive stance to try and prevet a throw, and I suppose the sanshou fighter will do the same to try and prevent the attack from me thus reversing the stances and now leaving him open for throw and me open for attack! hahaha.... how friggen odd. Its good we have choice.

Anyway, that was meant to be funny.

first read this, may take a while but is very good read with some respected names : http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bando/clinch.html


We all, well we should all know about clinching, Bando, Sanshou and Muay Thai believe it or not all have quite strong stand clinching techniques. Wether you come from BJJ, Judo, or JJJ do you have a good understanding of standup clinch? Now this isnt meant as a troll but as an honest question. Bando, Sanshou and Muay Thai, as far as I know for Sanshou, all have throws, takedowns and standup grappling, the techniques aint useless as many would like to believe but they definately aint 100% immune to everything so then a good understanding in ground grappling is sensible if you intend on fighting that way..... But! as I have said to kid_chocolate before I have grappled with 2 mma fighters who come to our gym and was surprised because they could not take me down, listen guys this is not a friggen troll just read what I am saying, now we were not shooting but starting from standup clinch! Then after doing a lot of questioning and what not I came across an article which explains about the apparent neglect of standup clinching by many mixed martial art fighters, strange, so I though to myself that is why I was infact superior in standup clinch than these two guys I was sparring with in my class, they didnt really have good standup clinch skills. Now if there was shooting who knows, i probably would have been taken down but this isnt about making arguements its about realising how I was able to not be taken down in standup clinch by a pure grappler, how many of you guys would admit that you have good standup skills?

I have read a lot about certain UFC fighters etc learning certain styles of standup clinch and actually winning fights in this position.... I dont know as I dont follow mma events but id like to know from those who do.

any opinions,

[MrPoopy]

I believe a lot of Judo throws can be performed from a clinch, even if your opponent isn't wearing something thick for you to grab.

BJJ does not focus enough on clinching. I don't know enough about JJJ but i'm going to guess they don't practice it enough also.

[Thai Bri]

The clinch is very underrated. But the original Shredder is an excellent tool to nullify much of the striking or throwing. It is also much easier to learn.

[ImpactCQC]

In my training group, we focus quite a bit on the clinch. I think the clinch "range" is going to be the next major push in martial arts info. I know the Singer Bros. have a great tape out on it. Knowing how to properly clinch is as important as knowing how to properly grapple.

[Thai Bri]

Real fights end up in the clinch all the time. People try to hit, fall into a rubbishy clinch, stumble about, and then fall to the ground.

[kid_chocolate]

Wether you come from BJJ, Judo, or JJJ do you have a good understanding of standup clinch?

You would have a complete understanding of the standup clinch if you come from judo. Much more so than a Thai or San Shou fighter.

[S.Anucha]

why? lol, no disrespect man, seriously.

what sets, technique ways, Thai/Burmese/Sanshou standup clinch aside from Judo.

I am not trolling you so relax.

[MrPoopy]

I've never practiced any of those other arts, but I know that in Judo 90% of their moves are done from a clinch or grips on clothing that are close to being a clinch.

[kid_chocolate]

Don't worry S. Anucha, I'm not offended, I just don't agree with you. I am priimarily a grappler but have also trained striking because its a big hole in the grappling arts. I started with boxing and moved to Thai for the knees and elbows. Thai is great for integrating striking into your clinch. Thats something that grappling styles don't think about much. But for pure grappling in the clinch a grappling style is much better because thats what they do all the time. You have to combine the two to get well rounded skills.

Thai grappling is limited. All of the guys who have trained in Thailand claim its a complete art but when I try standup grappling with them they are limited. Its due to the competition rules for Thai. I will quote you from another thread to show what I mean:

In the ring however you are not allowed full hip throws, only half hip, certain neck locks and arm pit throws are illegal.

Nearly every type of standup grappling is legal in sports like wrestling, judo and sombo. It gives you the whole picture where Thai is limited to a few simpe moves. As you said, there are other types of throw allowed in Thai, but the fighters don't know how to do them really well because they are not allowed in competition. For evidence of this look at the majority of Thai vs san shou fights. San shou focuses more on throwing in competition and as a result the san shou fighters more often get the throw vs Thai fighters. Wrestlers and judo guys are much better at throwing and standup grappling than san shou fighters.

Draw your own conclusions, but as I said before its essential to train in different arts for different parts of your game.

[S.Anucha]

Originally Posted by kid_chocolate

Thai grappling is limited. All of the guys who have trained in Thailand claim its a complete art but when I try standup grappling with them they are limited. Its due to the competition rules for Thai. I will quote you from another thread to show what I mean:

Yes and I agree! totally, thats why I feel Muay Thai schools should keep teaching the entire art of Muay Thai, we do train as you would say in BJJ "roll" training, its different with grappling as no-one is getting seriously hurt so sparring is good.

ok I am going to some shite now....

There are lots of camps in Thailand that do not teach certain illegal ring techniques to Farang because they know that the majority of Farang are inexperienced fighters so will probably use these illegal moves in the ring, some teach the illegal techniques but usually stop 2-3 weeks before a fight so as to ingrain in the brain the legal techniques. But as you gain experience, usually once you stop fighting like a windmill and start focusing more with control, you can train in what you want and just not use what you know is illegal.

Thats what I am saying, I have been told already that a takedown we use is very similar to jujitsu. we have a fantastic hip throw that will KO him when he hits the ground, also very simple to do... I can do these no problem under duress. the difference between Muay Thai (ring sport) and the actual art of Muay Thai are slight, I agree with you totally that a stand up grappling style is powerful but I dont agree that Thai grappling or Burmese grappling is limited, we cover nearlly every part of the body in stand up grapple, from the feet to the crown of the head, from takedowns to locks, under arm passing to throws to shoves to pulls to trapping and off balance techniques, that is the art of Thai fighting, always has been. It's one of my most favorite parts of training, grappling along with the use of knees, elbows and kicks ALL of it in other words

What am I saying? Muay Thai is striking and grappling, a lot of people obviously do not know this side of Muay Thai thats why I will disagree with people when they show lack of understanding in this area of Muay Thai, it isnt for sake of arguement and I'd love to show you in person but its not possible so we have to make do with forums and talk. This apparent lack of understanding and knoweldge in other so called Muay Thai practitioners solidifies the fact that I have a very good Muay Thai teacher, its actually Muay Boran (maemai) that he teaches me.

I will cross train in Naban after doing a lot of research about it, it seems to fit very well with Thai fighting style, Naban is wrestling, pure wrestling. My first priority is finding a good damn teacher in Naban.

but dude, you really need to Stand grapple with someone trained properly in Thai standgrappling to understand how easy and effective it actually is. Mate I'd be the first person to drop Thai standup if I thought Thai standup was limited outside of ring rules. Really I would. but I hear ya when you say your mates or whoever it was said this about Thai grapple and you chucked them, I have also done that to lots of Muay Thai stylists only to have them say "hey whats that you're doing?".

I am not disagreeing with you when you say cross training is good but its not completely necessary if you do not compete in Mixed Martial Arts (I will as I said compliment my Thai arts with Naban as soon as I get the time and find a place to learn it)

.....listen, I dont go out looking fights and have been in 3 fights since 1997!!! all 3 I won using Muay Thai, says a lot for me so i am happy. Next fight.... when? probably never as I tend to get out of fights easily and if not I tend to end them quickly!

So what I am saying here is, unless you are a lawman, Bouncer (Like yourself) or working in detention centres (Prisons, juvinile DC's etc etc) then there is a need to know how to restrain an individual without hurting them too much, you as a doorman will be up against drunkards who will charge you etc so obviously cross training is off upmost importance for you! that is very understandable and acceptable, but you see the world through a doormans eyes not everyone lives with the risks any of the above live with so many people infact do not need to cross train even though it is a fact of fighting.

Not everyone fights all the time, I mean whens the last time you were in a fight? and then ask someone else on the fourm and see the answer.

Its like saying, in america the chances of getting shot are high so I'd better go out and buy a gun! Or saying everyone has a car so I may buy one, look at your lifestyle, ask youself do I need to cross train and then do as your lifestyle dictates or if you simply just love to cross train then there is no reason why you shouldnt but simply doing it because YOU MUST is a little exaggerated....

...the majority of persons doing martial arts almost never fight, almost never get stuckin street altercations, the stresses of "knowing how to defend in a street fight" ar ebrought about by marketing and promotion, all it takes is to simply step back have a look at your own lifestyle and if it is basicly a fight free lifestyle then I wouldnt waste any sleep over not knowing how to ground grapple, know what I mean?

[S.Anucha]

So Judo is better at standing clinch than BJJ? for throws etc?

Just curious as I know someone, actually a friend who is shit hot at Judo, well apparently he is.

[kid_chocolate]

Yes it should be, although a lot of judo guys tend to focus on only a small amount of the total material available. Teaching quality can be variable too. bjj is more focussed on ground grappling.