Something all ground wrestlers should read

[S.Anucha]

ok I was pointed in the direction of some srticles which I read, they made sense, the shit this guys spoke of was nothing new to me but obviously when I tried to explain why ground fighting in "street fights" wasnt really a good idea it would have started flame wars and long drawn out silly debates with "what if's?" everywhere.

For you guys who think ground fighting is a good way of fighting outside and on the street then I really think you should read this.

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Where doesn't submission fighting work?

While it is important to know how to keep your head when you go to the ground, let's start by saying that if groundfighting was all that effective, armies would lie down when they fought. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't carry weapons, instead they'd use submission holds and mounting positions to defeat the other army's soldiers.

Since that is not the case, we must assume that grappling is not as universally effective as its proponents would claim.*

To truly understand where submission fighting doesn't work, we must understand where it does work. (And I will admit works spectacularly).

1) In a one-on-one confrontation
2) In an open, but limited, space
3) On padded, clear surfaces
4) Without weapons
5) With rules
6) When people aren't trying to kill each other

In otherwords, in a sporting event.

We can also say that it works under *very* limited conditions in a so-called 'real' fight. But it has to be a very specific kind of confrontation. In fact, it could be termed "a friendly" fight. But you can't rely on an altercation being of this self-limiting, non-destructive type.

So let's look at the elements, or more specifically the issues that *will* undermine submission fighting's effectiveness.

Multiple opponents - Trouble most often runs in packs. If you don't plan to face multiple opponents, you are not really training for self defense. Seldom will a friend watch another friend be defeated without making at least a token effort to join help. That is human nature, and ignoring it is a dangerous mistake -- especially since a friend's help can often be in the form of a bottle or a rock. Since you are involved on the ground in a one-on-one contest with all your limbs engaged and limited mobility you are vulnerable to a second attack from above. There is also the issue -- in less reputable locations -- of spectators joining in and kicking you both ... just for the fun of it.

In a not so open space, e.g. furniture, curbs and other people - While the floor work itself may not take a lot of room, going down usually does. Objects such as tables, chairs and bystanders pose chances of serious injury if you fall onto them -- especially if you have someone else's body weight driving you there.

In a truly open space - Since "grappling" made it's name in the UFC, we need to look at the circumstances of that event. You will see in many of the take downs that the "victim" had run out of room when it came to backing up. He was trapped against the "ropes." It's amazing how hard it is to catch someone, much less take them down, who has lots of room to backpedal or dodge.

Asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc. - Many "going to the ground" techniques are designed to work on pads, mats and smooth floors. Seldom do these conditions exist outside the dojo. A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a shattered bones. Hitting concrete with another person landing on top of you is a painful -- often fight stopping -- experience. Now you may think "that is the idea," but that is assuming that you are controlling the fall. A cagey fighter might not let you land on top of him, and that makes it as much your problem as his. Then there is the issue of bottles and glasses that you might land on. While you might at first think, "there aren't glasses/bottles/etc laying on the floor of the bar," that's under normal conditions, but if someone tackles you and you run into another person or tip over a table, those items can and will be knocked to the ground at the same speed as you.

Without weapons - This is even more dangerous misconception than assuming that you will only be fighting one person at a time. Once weapons come into play, it is no longer fighting, it's combat. The ground is the absolute *last* place you want to be with an armed opponent. Under those circumstances, all your so-called "advantage" turns against you because you cannot escape or avoid a weapon attack fast enough when you are on the ground.

Rules - Although the UFC was touted as "no rules," or more specifically "no holds barred," many of the more nasty and brutal moves were banned. Until you have endured these moves, it is easy to assume that you can "tough them out." Experience proves differently. Many of these techniques are so savage that people don't believe others would stoop so low -- and are therefore unprepared to handle them. This utterly undermines the assertion of many grapplers that "Well, we can do them too!"

It isn't a matter of doing it "too" it is a matter of who does it first -- as many of these moves are fight stoppers.

Not trying to kill each other - Grappling is probably best understood as "dominating" your opponent. It is used to subdue and force him to submit. In terms of "fighting" hat is a social function, it is not, however, combat. In combat, you are not trying to prove anything, you are not trying to force compliance. You are trying to kill him before he kills you. There are severe psychological differences in intent. And you fight totally differently. A fight with a drunken friend that you are trying to control (or prove he is out of line) is not the same as some evil bastard coming at you with intent to kill you. The same standards apply to the difference between fighting and self-defense.

If you know where groundfighting is effective, you can then deduce where it isn't safe -- and why

[S.Anucha]

and heres more :


Should you learn floorfighting?
Absolutely

In fact, not learning how to function on a basic level when on the ground is foolish. While I honestly disagree with the contention that "80 percent of all fights end up on the ground," that doesn't mean that they don't go there. (The story on that statistic is very questionable. My research indicates while it was a legitimate study, it was specifically for LEOs, pertaining to their operating conditions. That number was taken from a very legitimate, but narrow set of definitions -- where it was indeed valid-- and expanded to "ALL" fights. By generalizing it so, the number is no longer valid. Although I feel the reason Gracie trained players can make that claim with some level of accuracy is because they "take" their fights there. They make it a self-fulfilling prophecy). It is not however universally true.

But enough altercations *do* go to the ground that it is important to know how to function there - at least long enough to safely get up. Just don't get caught up in the fantasy of thinking it is the ultimate fighting system.







and some more very sensible advice :




When not to use grappling
Basically don't use it in a "self-defense" situation.
You are not there to engage an opponent. You are not there to fight an opponent. In a self-defense situation you are seeking to protect your life or prevent "grievous bodily injury" to yourself. That is not time to be thinking about fighting, you need to concern yourself more with getting the hell out of there and to safety. Most legitimate self-defense situations are not single adversary or without weapons.

Even if it is a one-on-one situation, a basic problem arises if you are attempting to subdue someone in a self-defense situation: After you have him in a nice submission hold, how are you going to get to the phone to call the police? This is just one of the problems that arises out of not knowing the difference between self-defense and fighting, much less the difference between martial arts and fighting..

And while we are on the subject, it's probably not the best idea to use it in a fight either.

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but there are serious legal consequences about fighting. What's worse is, even if the other guy "started it ," if your actions "go over the top" abpit what a "reasonable" person would consider "self-defense" you are in deep trouble. While it may be acceptable to do a knee mount and strike a downed opponent in the ring, sitting on someone's chest and jack-hammering his head off off the concrete isn't going to pass for anybody's definition of "self-defense." In many states, a choke hold is considered use of lethal force.

You're going to be in some deep legal trouble if you use your hardcore, kick-ass grappling techniques on someone and they suffer serious injury. Which is really likely if you are sitting on his chest punching him.

[S.Anucha]

When to use grappling
The purpose of submission fighting is to subdue an opponent and establish dominance. It is my heartfelt opinion that there are only two reasonable applications for grappling skills. And within these parameters, it is wonderful.
Those are:
1) When you don't want to hurt the guy
2) If it's your job to restrain and control someone

1) Not hurting your opponent - You friend is drunk and out of control. Because he is your friend, you don't want to snap him like a matchstick. Or it is some stupid, college-aged kid who is trying to impress people by picking a fight with you. In a nice restaurant, some asshole swung on you because you didn't back down or give into his unreasonable demands. These low-level threats are not situations where you want to gouge out somebody's eye or snap his neck. It is neither warranted, nor legally justified to use an extreme level of force.

This is where grappling utterly shines. You can control and dominate such an opponent, and, if the police show up, you can easily justify your use of force.

2) It's your job to use control tactics in protection of property or others - When everyone is doing the smart thing and running away, it is your job to do the stupid thing of charging into the conflict. Then yes. You do need to know how to handle yourself on the ground. You do need to know control and restraint tactics. Usually, however, your job will also have very specific standards for use of force and restraint tactics. You will need to be well versed in departmentally approved defensive tactics, control holds and use of force continuums. Additional training in grappling is a wonderful adjunct to this training. With this in mind, I would highly recommend taking a trip to the LEO section of this Web site.

These two conditions provide the optimum application of submission fighting.

However, when you have several sociopathic gangbangers coming at you, a knife-wielding mugger threatening your life or are in a large, unruly crowd, you *don't* want to try to grapple. In fact, you don't even want to try to fight. Escape should be your number one priority. Charging in and wrestling him to the ground, doesn't conform to the definition of escape.




and who is this written by? http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/marcmacyoung.html probably someone with more experience in fighting than most of us all on this forum

[IPON]

[QUOTE=For you guys who think ground fighting is a good way of fighting outside and on the street then I really think you should read this.

Since that is not the case, we must assume that grappling is not as universally effective as its proponents would claim.*

To truly understand where submission fighting doesn't work, we must understand where it does work. (And I will admit works spectacularly).

1) In a one-on-one confrontation
2) In an open, but limited, space
3) On padded, clear surfaces
4) Without weapons
5) With rules
6) When people aren't trying to kill each other[/QUOTE]


Wow, man this is a lot of stuff. No flame but I would like to add my 2 cents.

First, it should be clear some definitions: groundfighting is an aspect of grappling and the grappling arts. Grappling can be standing or on the ground. What is commonly refered to as the "clinch" is really a grappling range. Other gappleing arts hapkido, Aikido, combat wrestling, JJJ, Judo, San Shou, Chin Na (well not an MA per se)


2. In an open space yes but these are arts designed for close quarter combat

3. not only on padded surfaces but the reality is you have to train with padding to redude the amount injuries. Though I do agree and disagree with the authors point on break falls. They are not as effective as people think but at the same time people do not seem to understand that they are not designed to leave you unscathed, rather, they enable you to survive a throw/fall and keep you in the fight physically(less damaged) and (less shocked) mentally and .

4. All MAs excel without the use of weapons

5. Bjj can certaininly work without rules like any other combat sport/MA. But my criticism would be the the point of unlimited time. If it takes 30-90 minutes to win a match that is fine for sporting purposes. But I do not think think you can make claims of street effectiveness just based on the sporting aspect.

6. I think the tempo and or severity of the fight with dictate your response. There is no reason to think BJJ would not be effective, chokes work wonders


I do not agree that grappling should not be used in SD, a throw, choke, arm bar, wrist lock, reap can all be very effective. The point the author makes about SD can apply to all MAs, don't fight run. Regarding the legal implications, again, that is something all MAs have to consider, but like he said that is actually where grappling can be of benefint. But on the hi end any use of "exssessive force" will be a legal issue almost regardless of the situation.

The law in america is strange someone times you wonder who it protects. Did you know there was a case of a robber tried to steal a man's car from his his driveway, that is fenced and locked. Becuase of all the car thefts he rigged his car with electricity and broken glass and nails so if someone tried to steal it they would get a nasty suprie. Well, guess what somone tried to steal the car, got the suprise, went to the hospital pressed charges on the car opwner and filed a lawsuit. The guy spent a night in jail ( I believe for assualt) and was sued and the car thief won (I don't know how much it was a few years ago). But anyway, that is the stupidity of our leagal system, and we MAs suffer the same way. When in court they look at the final outcome and start questioning "why did you...., you could have..." Well your honor if I was an oracle I would have know that he was not reaching for a knife or gun but since he came from behind and said "gimme you money or I will shoot" I had reason to suspect he had a weapon.


I know off topic by there' my $.02

[kid_chocolate]

Grappling ability is necessary for fighting. So is striking ability. Both are equally vital. One assumption S. Anucha often seems to make is that grappling on the ground is grappling. All good grappling arts focus heavily on standup grappling as well. Grappling is being able to control a person in contact range, whether standing or on the ground and thats definately useful in self defence.

Self defence applications of grappling skill include being able to keep your feet through good balance, ability to unbalance attackers and make them fall over, basically a "feel" for how to manipulate a body and get it to do what you want.

Street grappling is NOT jumping to guard and trying to armbar one guy while his mates kick you in the head. Its more like breaking free of a grab attempt by one guy, tripping him up, then pushing his friend into moving traffic. That sort of thing would come naturally to a good grappler and its all good for self defence. Combined with striking skills, you have a good well rounded skill set.

Striking arts like Thai have some limited standup grappling but it doesn't compare to judo or wrestling ability. Same goes for the crappy striking in judo- it doesn't compare to the great striking in Thai. The best bet is not to rely on one narrow system too much or you will be easy to predict and beat. Cross training is the key.

[S.Anucha]

I dont think the auther was aiming his criticism towards BJJ or grappling in general but more towards "ground fighting".

kid_chocolate, you are right in saying that Thaiboxing is limited in ground grappling, that is a fact but in itself the Thai standing grappling/clinch (3 positional basic) Muay Thai has to offer is a martial art initself. That is not a biased opinion its a fact. It deals with half hip to full hip throws, under arm passes and neck locks, arm pit throws neck takedowns and quite a lot of other easy techniques that work very well. Randy Coutour uses Thai and Naban in his style. Thai and Burmese stand up clinch is efficiently effective as a means for standup grappling, I will say that because I have experience with them. In the ring however you are not allowed full hip throws, only half hip, certain neck locks and arm pit throws are illegal.

When you fight on the street in a purely self defensive manner, read what i am saying here, SELF DEFENSE not on the door or as a lawman but in pure self defense, what is you main priority? and the chances are if you are sitting here typing on a PC with an internet connection you are probably not a "street" violent thug who is fighting practically every other night and living a life of crime. So the chances of him being way more crazier than you when its him you end up fighting with are very high..... what do you do? take him to the ground to fight him or thump him to gain a break and run? I'll tell ya now, where I come from fights are far from fair, no f'ing way and I can honestly say any man that posts on this forum including myself who thinks he could simply walk into some bars or areas close by and act the tough guy and use his BJJ mixed with striking and then walk back out again unscathed and being winner is very mistaken! That shit doesnt happen and unless you are amongst a group of other similar minded dicks or carry a gun you are in for a big surprise.

I learn Thai boxing to fight in competition not to be a street fighting hero! I learn Thai arts because I love the Thai people and their arts. If I am ever in a fight, and I have been even before I knew Thaiboxing, I will do anything to get out or hurt the person, its that simple I can guarantee that knowing BJJ or whatever wont make much of a difference if you are up against a mean shit with intent to seriously harm you, it is that simple and really thinking otherwise is quite stupid. There are fucking mean bastards who know jack shit about grappling or boxing but they have experience fighting in the most dirtiest of ways and they know what they do works thats why they continue to do it! Some go on to become right evil shits that wouldnt think twice about cutting your throat....

Learn BJJ and mix your martial arts for the love of it not because it will make you a better fighter, thats bullshit, if you are a doorman or a cop then its understandable why one should want to learn how to restrain!

The auther of those articles knows his shit, it makes sense, he's done it it all before, he's served time. I'd personally listen to what he has to say.

[BadgerFu57]

This argument is so outdated lol. Basically, grappling can be very effective, most people just don't understand it.

Kicking air and doing katas does not do anything for self-defense.

Learning how to throw someone then run away does. Let me explain.

Most TKD/Karate kicks you can rush a person and knock them over easily. Modern karate and TKD has evolved around point sparring. There is no emphasis on balance or power in the strikes. I know for a fact, I went to a TKD school, and without even using takedown techniques, I was able to just rush people and knock them over. Something any old street-thug could do.

Grapplers are great at using momentum, balance, and leverage. If a street thug was to rush them, they could use a sweep or trip, the thug would be face down on the ground, and they could either run or stand and fight MULTIPLE OPPONENTS.

While this won't always work from a grappling standpoint, grapplers can take people to the ground fast without going down themselves. A definite benefit in multiple opponent situations.

Some grappling systems deal with knives, clubs, and other weapons, even guns (although I would rather just give them my wallet).

Grappling techniques can quickly disable an opponent without killing them. Throws can knock the wind out of them or even give them a concussion. Chokes can render them unconscious. Armbars (which can be done from standing or any position) will take out their limbs. Even a simple trip can render a grappler enough time to get away.

[BadgerFu57]

Gracie Jiu-jitsu was just modified for one-on-one sport fighting. But I wouldn't say it is ineffective for the street, or that it is the end all be all in grappling. They just found what works in the ring, and used it. I know Rorion teaches Traditional Jiu-Jitsu as well at his school, and it uses throws and weapon defenses. TJJ covers more ranges of fighting and is good for self-defense. BJJ is just specialized for MMA.

[S.Anucha]

dude you are loosing the debate! read the posts and then try to undertsand it is not a Grappling is crap thread it is a "ground fighting" isnt really sensible in a self defense manner, two very different arguements if only you'd read. I know, you know we all fucking know that grappling is great! but is ground fighting such a good idea inself defense?

Thats the question lol

[S.Anucha]

ground Fighting, Is It Sensible Or Not In A Self Defense Situation Because We All Know Grappling Is Effefctive Be It Stand Up Grappling Or Ground Grappling, We Already Know That But Is It Such A Wise Idea To Use Ground Grappling In Self Defens Situation... Ground Grappling!!! Anything That Is Grappling While On Your Feet Is Not Ground Grappling, Hahah Understand?

[Sean Dempsey]

When they kick at your front door
How you gonna come?
With your hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun


These "street fighting" threads are pointless. First of all, this is a MMA/BJJ forum, says right at the top. Not a "broken bottle and gravel" forum. Maybe the admins can make a new "blacktop multiple attacker broken bottle" forum.

Second, there is no form of martial arts that works in the street. The art that works is Gun-shootsu. If you want to have reasonable self defense skills in 2003, go get a concealed weapons liscense and an unlimited pass to your shooting range, then also practice what it feels like to shoot at a living human. Then you'll have some sort of self defense.

[IPON]

S.Anucha - LMAO......we can't hear you speak up

[Cain]

tough sean dempsy, is it hard when people critisize your religion? :P

[Sean Dempsey]

hah, I have no idea what Cain is referring to or what his comment is supposed to mean. I love it when flames go right over my head.

[FUH-Q]

ok, anuka, there are lots of good arguments against groundfighting in the street, but that first article was just plain stupid. i would elaborate but im really tired.

you seriously need to go train with a good MMA/ JKD fighter, then you will see. i used to only train muay thai and i love it, but after a while i started to wonder about groundfighting so i went and trained with an ok groundfighter. most of these guys will bait you to throw that thai kick and get the single leg takedown EVERY time. and because you refuse to train in grappling you have no idea how much of a fish out of water you are. go train with an average wrestler and see if you can stay on your feet. still doubt it; think about this. when you get in this hypothetical fight and your muay thai skills allow you to start whooping his ass he gets desperate and tackles you......can we say ground and pound. dont be so arrogent as to think you can keep someone from taking you to the ground.

also, i dont know what world you live in but the one im in doesnt have broken glass covering all floors. yes there is concrete, yes there is a minute possibility that there might be a broken bottle on the ground but ill take my chances with BJJ. am i saying that you should forget learning a standing art but dont preach to us that BJJ doesnt work ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU HAVENT TRAINED IT FOR ANY SUBSTANCIAL AMOUNT OF TIME.

my other point is that grapplers actually train takedowns and will be the ones on top most of the time. i dont know any sane grappler who would pull guard in a fight....im going for the clinch and workin his legs with my knees until he backs up (thats when i shoot in for the takedown) or if he trains trys to throw a knee of his own (thats when i take his leg for the single leg takedown).