Ankle Locks and Knee Bars in BJJ

[GuardMaster]

What's your take on working the lower body subs in BJJ? Many moons ago this was frowned upon and used very sparingly, but nowadays concepts of sambo and shootfighting, have been incorporated into the BJJ ciriculum.

I myself think it is great since you have more subs in your arsenal from more positions, especially when you can't quite pass the guard, escape the back, etc. I feel mixing subs with escapes is best.

Do you feel individuals who focus more on subs (ankle locks and knee bars from inside the guard, from when your opponent has your back ) instead of learning escapes like passing guard, and escaping the back etc are hurting their game in any way?

GM

[mjohnson]

They are a great addition to your submissions. The more ways to beat someone the better.

I'm usually nice to the judo guys that I roll with, I don't use any leg submissions. I realized how important they are to BJJ because I see lots of chances to apply them. If you practice BJJ, they are a great asset.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by mjohnson

They are a great addition to your submissions. The more ways to beat someone the better.

I'm usually nice to the judo guys that I roll with, I don't use any leg submissions. I realized how important they are to BJJ because I see lots of chances to apply them. If you practice BJJ, they are a great asset.

the more ways to beat someone the better? i would rather say: a few techniques you infact KNOW.. but that is my idea of it..

[MrPoopy]

I'd rather not do heel hooks but foot locks and knee bars are alright. The Judo guys I roll with try foot locks on me all the time, but they never get it to work.

[platinum_angel]

for some reason i have a lot of trouble with knee bars

[ryanhall]

Ankle locks, etc. are all good in my book. Don't see any reason not to practice them and work them into your ground game. However, they are a shortcut, and a lot of people who focus on them do so at the expense of learning how to properly pass the guard.

[Thai Bri]

What are they like to apply on people with foot wear on? I don't really know much about foot lock type things. I was shown a few, but never really trained them.

[Mr. Miyagi]

If someone has shoes on, for a kneebar it doesn't really make a difference. However, it makes ankle locks and heel hooks 100x easier to lock in. The shoe is so much easier to trap behind your armpit than a sweaty, stinky, flexible, bare foot.

I agree that novice and intermediete grapplers should spend more time working on passing the guard and sweeps, even if that means ignoring footlock/kneebar opportunities during sparring sessions.

Those lower body locks are harder to get on guys with long legs, for some reason, even though you might think the opposite would be true. If you are going after a kneebar on a long legged guy his other spider leg will come in to save him. Likewise, when you try to footlock a daddy long legs, he can leg press his way out of it, or even counter with a better footlock. Also, long legged guys seem to have a better leverage for applying lower body subs as well. Just my observation. Long legged guys are usually good at getting triangles, for obvious reasons, but I'm not quite sure how they manage to have an advantage with the lower body subs.

[GuardMaster]

The real question is, after getting used to appling footlocks from disadvantageous positions like inside someones guard, with someone on ones back, its easy to forget working one escapes.

After all why bother escapes when you can FINISH your opponent right there? Chances are if you escape you are just going to be out of the frying pan and into the oven anyways...

GM

[Mr. Miyagi]

Originally Posted by GuardMaster

The real question is, after getting used to appling footlocks from disadvantageous positions like inside someones guard, with someone on ones back, its easy to forget working one escapes.

After all why bother escapes when you can FINISH your opponent right there? Chances are if you escape you are just going to be out of the frying pan and into the oven anyways...

GM

Because as you reach the next level there will be opponents whose technique is tighter and you will have no chance of catching them with a sub from a disadvantaged position. Against better opponents, if you try to get a kneebar or footlock when they're passing your guard not only will you fail to get the sub, but they'll end up with a nice tight side control or mount on you that will be much more difficult to escape. If you concentrate on your position and how you move your hips and how you keep them at distance, it will be much more difficult for them. But, you will learn the hard way. Don't take my word for it, there are black belts out there teaching and stressing escapes, why would they do that?

[Sean Dempsey]

Guardma$ter:

After all why bother escapes when you can FINISH your opponent right there?

Mr Miyagi:

Because as you reach the next level there will be opponents whose technique is tighter and you will have no chance of catching them with a sub from a disadvantaged position...

...Don't take my word for it, there are black belts out there teaching and stressing escapes, why would they do that?

O to the wned. Guardma$ter, you don't need to keep trying to reinvent the wheel. Do what your instructors and other people a few belts higher than you teach, you're NOT gonna figure out some sort of BJJ secret where you'll tap everyone when they have your back... stick to the tradition, your quote is absolutley absurd.

"Why fight anyone at all when you can just go for 1 punch knockouts!" Makes more sense than what you said. Jees, next thing I know you're gonna be saying "Why use ankle locks at all when you can freak out and fly and stab, wail hard on your guitar and pop 17 boners!"

The sign of an ego newbie = Always has the "but what if I just... to escape/submit/dominate?"

You can't think of anything that BJJ experts haven't yet. Stick to programming.

[tekshow]

i dunno i've come up against skilled practioners, and i've used an ankle lock on the gaurd against them, but its usually a momentary distraction that gets a reaction, not a finishing move....


but i don't see why it wouldn't work on everyone. start cranking an ankle in the gaurd and watch their position change. i don't care how 'tight' there technique is they may not tap but they'll roll away and then a knee bar or at least getting to the side mount is more feasible...


as far as the accilies (sp) ankle lock i never even tap from those, but only twisting ankle locks like a figure four toe hold, etc...



good luck to everyon, in continued training -

[GuardMaster]

Sean

Last I check this forum was made for civilized debating. You seem to be very closed minded with your approaches to dealing with people's opinions.

You're not 14 are you ?

You also talk like your at least a purple belt, and you haven't answered my question of what belt you are. So why don't you as a Bjj expert tell people what belt you are?

GM

[Seifer2399]

Originally Posted by GuardMaster

Do you feel individuals who focus more on subs (ankle locks and knee bars from inside the guard, from when your opponent has your back ) instead of learning escapes like passing guard, and escaping the back etc are hurting their game in any way?

GM

Focusing on any one technique too much without taking into account the value of others is most certaintly going to be detrimental to your fighting game. Just like you said, a good blend of lower body submissions and guard passing is the best way to go, such as:

- if you're in the guard and somehow happen to break it and the submission is there, go for it . .

- if the submission fails or he sees it coming, then try passing the guard, or vice versa.

It's nice to have options available, just like a chess game. Sure rooks have that long range attack on the board, but being able to have the knight's ability to jump over pieces along with the rooks' attack makes you that much more dangerous.

Best regards,

Seifer2399