Question for everyone, esp. serious grapplers?

[vandamfan]

Iv'e been reading some posts about bjj or wrestling being the best style to branch off of. First off all, I think it is important how an athlete chooses to train for mma competition. This will affect his performance and his career as a mmartist. I honestly feel that wrestling is probably the style to go with in the begining. I mean, even the some of you bjj guys have claimed how hard it is to do your thing against a wrestler after he's done a litttle bjj basic training. I can relate to them, I've been there before! Ryu, Mr Poopy & butcanuwrestle make some interesting points. I don't mean to ride anybody's jock or anything, but I have to agree with what butcanuwrestle says about wrestlers benefeting more when doing a little crostraining in bjj than the other way around. No disrespect to the bjj guys, really. Hell, I train in bjj, it's just that I'm man enough to swallow my pride on this one folks. I'm just trying to improve you know? This is just the way I feel right now. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this. Who knows, maybe some of you guys can prove me wrong by giving me some more insight? Let's find out once and for all. Please no insults.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Of course it's true. A decent wrestler can come into a bjj school and after a couple months, he'll know how not to get armbarred, triangled, kimura, or any other sub from the guard. And he was probably not swept even the first day, except by the black belt instructor.

Take the example of Conan Silveira. He is a big tough black belt, was highly respected on the Carlson team when he was competing in mma. He did very well in the early EFC's and was the first to submit the slippery Mo Smith. But he himself, a black belt with plenty of strength and grappling skill, was subbed by wrestlers Sakuraba and Severn. Sak is tricky and subbed lots of guys but Severn fought a pretty basic fight. Severn, however, could not be swept by a bjj fighter, and by that time learned enough to avoid being subbed from the top. This was just a couple years after he had been triangled by Royce, and didn't even know what a triangle was.

Noone should choose to have an mma career. It makes a wonderful fantasy but there is nothing easy about what any of those guys are doing. They were very skilled in thaiboxing, judo, bjj, or wrestling before they decided to crosstrain and do mma. If you haven't been doing one of the basic mma arts for years already, you can't transition to mma. As a spectator I can say that Royce's takedowns and standup aren't that great compared to the elites, but I know he could not only easily take me down, but could easily KO me standing too. I criticize them the same way I say something about a pro basketball player. We're just fans.

I can't prove you wrong, I tend to agree.

[vandamfan]

On that note, I think Kimo made a mistake when he dropped all that weight with the intent to become a better bjj stylist and an overall better grappler. He should of instead stayed in the shape he was in and focused on both wrestling and bjj.

[butcanuwrestle?]

MMA combat is tailor made for wrestlers for reasons that I've already explained. I feel that although some bjj fans may realize it, ther pride won't let them admit it. It's funny how Ken Shamrock, a submission expert, could not even attempt a submission in his rematch against Severn, while Mark Colememan, a "ground and pound" wrestler with a basic knowledge in submissions easily managed to pull out a neck cranck on Severn?

Theoretically it's not supposed to happen, but it does. Control>Position>Execution. Coleman did what Ken couldn't because he could gain better positions. He gained better positions because he was a better wrestler with superior controling skills.

[Bling Bling]

Both BJJ and Wrestling can exist as friends together. The styles have many differences but look the same. My first time wrestling a BJJ instructor, I had 25lbs. on him. We started from standing up, I snapped his head down and shot in on a double leg which turned into an inside trip. Immediately I was in his guard, not to swift with any submissions at the time, I tried to pass his guard. I learned my first lesson in less than one minute. A triangle choke which I had never experienced and could not pull away from. I tapped. It was beautiful, I've only been caught one other time since then. It was by him again. What I've learned from BJJ which I never felt in wrestling was the "relax your body, relax your body, get position, then execute"

Glad to be a part of both styles!!!!

[tekshow]

^^^ Bling bling, really has it down, a lot of people don't stress relaxation enough, and i've met plenty of BJJers and wrestlers alike who come in all tense and 100% force...


but back to the topic -


i've never taken wrestling and i've grappled against those who have and they always ask "did you wrestle in high school." Not once. if you're going to take BJJ seriously then it is a complete art, more complete IMHO than regular wrestling. but they are close friends as BlingBling pointed out...


imo something that can benefit a bJJer is Tai Chi, if you can be soft and sensitive (and i mean that in the most masculine way) you can really feel the intent of your opponent before he does...


just my .02

[butcanuwrestle?]

Originally Posted by Bling Bling

Both BJJ and Wrestling can exist as friends together. The styles have many differences but look the same. My first time wrestling a BJJ instructor, I had 25lbs. on him. We started from standing up, I snapped his head down and shot in on a double leg which turned into an inside trip. Immediately I was in his guard, not to swift with any submissions at the time, I tried to pass his guard. I learned my first lesson in less than one minute. A triangle choke which I had never experienced and could not pull away from. I tapped. It was beautiful, I've only been caught one other time since then. It was by him again. What I've learned from BJJ which I never felt in wrestling was the "relax your body, relax your body, get position, then execute"

Glad to be a part of both styles!!!!

That's right, combining the two is the best possible outcome. However gaining a firm wrestling base early on is crucial in developing an overall dominant grappling game. If you develop sensational bjj skills along with mediocre wrestling skills, you will have a more difficult time executing submissions against a crosstrained wrestler than the other way around? Again control>position>submission. Patience while waiting to capitalize for an opening is good, but only until you become too defensive minded. That is the problem with some bjj stylist today. They are too defensive minded and lack taking the initiative. They are waiting for the wrestler to make a mistake so they can catch him in a submission. Well guess what, they are not making as many mistakes anymore, and the bjj guys have run out of new submissions to surprise them with. The result; The bjj stylists who decide to wait for the wrestler to make a mistake are simply getting crushed and dominated in the process.