is Judo groundfighting good enough?

[Panagiotis97]

is judo groundfighting good enough or only bjj can learn you how to ground fight good enough to pull it through a fight?

judo is focused only on a few basic techniques in ground fighting or is it advanced ground fighting?

would it better to choose BJJ or Judo?
BJJ is best at ground but almost none standup grappling and Judo is excellent at stand up and has enough ground fighting...

[S.Anucha]

answer some questions,

what are you wanting from learning how to fight?

do you want to compete in competitions where ground fighting is a common strategy?

or do you want to compete in competitions where there is no ground fighting?

do you want to have some self defense skills where ground fighting is not encouraged because it is VERY dangerous in self defense?

or do you simply wanna have fun and explore what different types of systems have to offer?

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My opinion *this is my opinion*

Self Defense :

Self defense should be geared towards keeping to your feet, it is damn obvious why you do not want to fight on the ground in self defense, think about it. You should have very good skills with standing grapple and takedowns (look into any art that teaches standing grappling and takedowns while you stay standing) you should know how to strike an attacker while in clinch grapple (look into any art that has good clinch strike methods) perfect selfdefense has in it the knowledge of how to disarm an attacker who has a knife or neutralise an attack with a stick etc (look into an art that deals with sticks, knives and non balistic weapons) You should at least know what to do when you find yourself on the ground, not so much as to fight there but to get back up onto your feet (look into an art that deals with neutralising ground attack so as to get you back up safely)

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Competitive :

what are the rules of the sport you do? the rules of your sport dictate what you train in.

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for fun :

do whatever the feck you like!

[Thai Bri]

What he said.

[MrPoopy]

Judo ground work isn't that bad. BJJ is better for ground work.

Judo ground work is not just a few simple moves. It's more than that, but still not as good as BJJ.

[Szczepankiewicz]

In what I've seen of Judo groundwork, most of what they do is try for a quick submission or pin. Short of that, they turtle and stall until they get stood up again.

There are some Judoka with excellent ne waza. But they are the exception, not the rule.

[kid_chocolate]

In what I've seen of Judo groundwork, most of what they do is try for a quick submission or pin. Short of that, they turtle and stall until they get stood up again.

But you haven't seen much of judo newaza, right?

There are some Judoka with excellent ne waza. But they are the exception, not the rule.

But you haven't seen much of judo newaza, right? You are American. The US is possibly the developed country with the worst judo in the world, especially considering its size. You are not a good judoka, so why perpetuate this internet myth?

If you come to Europe, Russia or Japan you will see lots of very very good judo newaza. If you show "bjj" in these countries, people recognise it as judo. Most people with the beliefs that you hold are Americans, due to some clever marketing of bjj. Bjj is judo newaza. There is nothing in bjj that is not in judo, except a macho attitude and expensive classes.

Judo is a large subject. People naturally specialise when they reach a high enough level. Some become great throwers, others focus on power and wrestling type moves, others on ground work etc. Bjj is great as a methodically taught set of judo ground techniques, good for beginners with no experience, but it is inflexible in its approach unlike judo where you do what you are good at.

I have a German judo book, written for junior belt level kids. It contains all the judo newaza you would be taught to purple belt level in bjj. Its just taught like that in Europe, no fuss. Its expected. People have never heard of bjj. At the higher levels, judo has better ground technicians than bjj has even come close to. Examples are Kashiwazaki, Neil Adams, Iastkevich, Isao Okano, the list goes on. The difference is that bjj is a narrow set curriculum whereas judo is so much more.

If you are in the US then perhaps go for bjj, but anywhere else in the world judo is light years ahead (even in Brazil).

[Thai Bri]

Bull shit, and I'm a fan of Judo. As an effective real fighting art Judo has been strangled (pardon the pun) by its sporting rules. They can't do that and they can't do this. Although some of the throws are brilliant, many are just too complex to pull off in a real go. And, as for the groundwork, Judo rules have outlawed so much of it that they can't, for example, defende heel hooks etc.

BJJ developed without the restrictions of becoming a sport. The problem now, of course, is that it is increasingly becming one, and will finally end up like Judo anyway.

[kid_chocolate]

No you've simply read too many internet forums and not done enough judo. There is no bullshit in what I said, its simply an unfashionable truth. Tell me where you live and I will direct you to an excellent judo club.

Judo shiai rules are somewhat tight on groundwork, but most competition judoka that I know of still practice around 50:50 standing:ground and these are not even groundwork specialists. Do not confuse judo with its sporting outlet.

The competition rules also force judo newaza specialists to become amazingly slick and fast with finishing on the ground if they want to use it in competition. Time is a luxury often assumed by bjj stylists which is not present in reality.

bjj is judo, its just the culture that is different. Quite amusing that bjj defines itself by its supposed difference from judo.

[MrPoopy]

Kid Chocolate, you're full of shit. Stop making comments on subjects you're not very well informed about.

I've done BJJ and Judo. Judo ground work can not and will not ever be at the level of BJJ. They simply don't practice it enough and their mentality is faulty.

My Judo instructor is fantastic at newaza but at best he might be able to hang with a purple belt. And he's been in Judo for 20+ years.

And what the hell are you talking about a junior level book in german or some shit? A kid isn't going to learn the techniques of a BJJ purple belt. And that's that. At my club and most Judo clubs, kids don't even get to learn submissions until they are 13 years old. And I suppose you think that if Judokas did know all the moves they'd be just as good, right? Wrong. A BJJ white belt might know just as many moves as a blue belt, a purple belt.. maybe even a brown belt. But they aren't worth a damn if you've never developed the skill to use them. And that's the problem with Judokas. They simply don't have the skill to use them because they havne't spent enough time doing it and aren't even allowed to do half of them.

[MrPoopy]

Oh yeah.. I forgot, you need to stop bitching that BJJ is Judo. BJJ had to develop from something, just like Judo had to develop from jujitsu.

BJJ has clearly evolved into a martial art of it's own. It is no longer Judo.

[Szczepankiewicz]

But you haven't seen much of judo newaza, right?

So how much do I have to see before I can have your permission to state my opinion?

I prefaced my statement with a qualification.

So, let's go to the tape:

http://www.judoinfo.com/weers1.htm

If you'll check out the Average skill level by Championship Range you'll find a general ratio 3:1 of standing vs. ground techniques being used AT the championship level, in COMPETITION.

So why such a disparity if Judo Ne Waza is so good?

Further on in the article, the author states that most Judoka have 6 favorite throwing techniques and 2 newaza techniques. We see the 3:1 ratio stated again.

Back to the tape:

http://www.judoinfo.com/weers5.htm

Defensive Ground Play postures with the defender on or near his stomach, and tucked in strongly, are extremely difficult to assault. Top players know this and get into this position at every possible opportunity.

Yeah, the Judo Ne Waza rules... that's why the top players turtle at every possible opportunity.

Even an American who is, by your conclusion, "not a good judoka" can see this.

But, then again, I didn't get my information from a German children's book, so I may be wrong...

[kid_chocolate]

I've done BJJ and Judo. Judo ground work can not and will not ever be at the level of BJJ. They simply don't practice it enough and their mentality is faulty.

I have also done bjj and judo. I have a nidan in judo and a brown in bjj. My bjj belt came very quickly due to the judo I had learned previously. I assume you must be in the USA to have such a skewed opinion? As I said before, European judoka typically practice 50:50 standing:ground. More for newaza specialists. Don't draw conclusions about things you haven't experienced and are not likely to.

And what the hell are you talking about a junior level book in german or some shit? A kid isn't going to learn the techniques of a BJJ purple belt. And that's that. At my club and most Judo clubs, kids don't even get to learn submissions until they are 13 years old.

Sounds like you are at a really bad club, shame for you. Kids learn newaza over here. Some places in the US also teach it to non adults- eg Gokor and LeBell.

There are lots of European kids judo books with newaza techs. The one I was referring to is the easily available "Judo Bodenprogramm von orangegrun bis braun" Sander und Deling. Its covers the basics of newaza for German kids belts up to brown. Its easily comparable with the stuff bjj teaches as up to a purple belt level. And thats for kids. In Japan even more comprehensive manuals are available to judo students. I didn't realise the US was in such a bad way with regards to judo and I'm really sorry.

The main difference with bjj is that bjj assumes you are an idiot and need to be taught in a prescriptive manner. Judo is more open to development of individual styles in newaza.

Basically you guys are not competitive level judoka, so you don't see the training. You also happen to live in the wrong country. You constantly confuse competition rules and the fights that result with the actal training that judoka do.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by kid_chocolate

judoka typically practice 50:50 standing:ground.

That was may experience as well randori standing and kneeling for ground. We spent an equla amount of time with standing and ground work.

BJJ acknowleges (kosen) judo , fusen ryu jujitsu in thier style. Most if not all of the techniches, ground fighting, the concept of challenge matches, etc. came from judo in general and specifically Mateda that is no secret (and does not take away from the Gracie accomplishments). The problem was Kano deciding circa 1925 to committ to the sport aspect and remove alot of the formidible techniques in trade for sports appeal.

So kid_chocolate you are correct in the sense that it is judo, but it is the forgotten or de-emphasized techniques of judo. Please see link-interesting information


To answer the original question I would say Yes Judo ground fighting is enough, but no it is not the equal of BJJ due to the emphasis. just as BJJ standup is not equal to Judo or JJJ due to the emphasis. However, for SD judo ground work will be more than enough if you happen to go to the ground. And judo standup techniques will make sure that you rarely get to the ground.




http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/news_archive_0603.shtml

[jules]

well. Let's see all the attacks that are banned in Judo. No leg locks and the triangle was just recently reinstated. Does original judo have most if of the bjj moves? Of course? Judo is just Kano-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu after all. They both come from Japanese Jiu-Jitsu. Let's face it, if you learn Judo outside of Japan it is very unlikely that you will learn original Kokodan Judo. Shit I live in korea (a damm good judo nation) and the Judoka here are extremely impressed with BJJ and acknowlages it's advantage on the ground. Article 27 xxiii of the IJF rules of Judo states that it is illegal " To apply kansetsu-waza anywhere other than to the elbow joint.".
http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_referee...ntryintonewaza

Judo has all of the chokes that BJJ has. I think judo is real cool and if i had more time i would try to learn it . But between MT and BJJ i simply don't have the time. There was talk of PRIDE trying to get Ki-Young Jeon to come int MMA but he refused .

[MrPoopy]

That explains it. Kid Shockolot is practicing german judo.