What to look for when considering taking martial arts?Why MMA over Traditional Arts?

[chris davis 200]

i agree with much of what you say Miyagi - (by the way i dont do Karate! )

[Alvaro Lobato]

Chris, help me out here. I am losing my faith. Better, I am questionning my faith in Aikido.

I have practiced Aikido for 10 years (not that frequently since I am still a blue belt). Before that I practiced 1 year Karate, 1 year BJJ and 6 years Judo.

If you start reading messages around discussion boards, Aikido is generally mentionned as a theoretical MA. I understant we must practice with real care, since the techniques are tremendously dangerous. But that poses a problem - since we can not do it at full speed/strenght, it really creates a situation that is not enterilly true. In BJJ it is much easier, since you can have more control in techniques and they are not that destructable (generally applied gradually or in large joints), therefore the trainning puts you in a much (no kicks and punches) "real" combat.

The question is - How do you feel about Aikido in real situations ? What are the advantages you collect from this MA ? Do you still practice it ?

[chris davis 200]

hi Alvaro Lobato,

For the record i do not practice aikido - i do practicee Daito ryu aiki ju Jutsu the forerunner of aikido.

I think that the literal viewpoint of this technique to that attack is where most people practicing any martial art fall down.

The way that we should look at the MA's IMO is that we are training our body to move in reaction to any attack and learning to deal with such attacks using principles rather than set responces.

You say that you have been learning for a number of years - but sparingly. It is my opinion that in order to obtain this 'natural body responce' we need to train constantly. daily. Not necisarily with instruction but on our own also. If you look at the great MA's of our time they are great because they did not theorise but practiced. When your body is constantly training in principles of movement and reaction - they will become second nature - this is where the 'skill' of the art comes from. Not from the set of techniques.

Regarding the application of aikido movements. I think that generally in a training environment the attackers in aikido are using unrealistic overly co-opporative attacks. Many not letting the defence be applied but doing Ukemi at the slightest touch. In the top aikido dojo's this is not so apparant. In order to overcome this mindset it is good to practice Randori where someone just attacks (realisticly) with no knowledge of the technique you will apply - if your Uke is not taken down then your technique is not working and you need to got back and practice more.

Alot of aikido techniques throw the attacker onto the back of their head or face when applied at full power and speed, hence the reason for advanced ukemi in the style. Even a simple Koshi nage from Judo if applied correctly in a traditional manner is a killing technique. The modern method is to throw onto the back to score points. The traditional way was to throw the opponent head first into the floor, their whole body weigth driving down onto the head and neck! Obviously we cannot practice this method - so it is adapted to make the practice safe. BUT people should try to be aware of techniques original purpose - But alas few schools or teachers do realise this to be the case.

We should not blindly follow our teachers but look at the principles of movement and how they are applied to a range of attcks - not just the ones you learn in the dojo.

Most aikidoka i know usually come from other disaplines like Judo etc. The reason being that aikido will have a less damaging effect on the body and creates a more dosile mindset.

Aikido has its place - so do all the other arts you mention.

Practice hard and the principles your gain from the practice will become second nature - then you can start to play. Sparring with other styles, testing yourself etc.

But if you dont 'get' the principles - ad just look at the techniques on face value you will kind of 'miss the boat' so to speak.

Hope this rambling helps!

Regards
Chris

[Alvaro Lobato]

Chris,


thanks for your answer. Unfortunatelly, it is impossible the everyday trainning you mentionned. I am just a father of two, small entrepreneur, over forty, with restricted time frame.

I read a few books on Daito-Ryu, and have seen some tapes too. It is almost the same of Aikido (I should say the vice-versa) with a less round movements and a more straight forward application of the technique.

You have been kind enough not to answer directly my question by saying "Aikido has its place - so do all the other arts you mention.". I agree. On the other hand I think there are other reasons for practicing any martial art.

If you have a tough job, just like yours sound to be, you have to have the best, quick and effective response possible.

Most of the situations I encounter in my life are simply business or social relations, for which Aikido helps me a lot. Moreover, most of the people I may have to eventually fight will generally not fight well or at all.

I also like the less destructive possibility that Daito-ryu or Aikido open to you when applying a technique. Not to mention the balance, the centering and harmony effect of the practice.

I know it sounds like an excuse for Aikido, but it is also an open discussion for whomever read it.

Yesterday I practiced Full Contact (which I will do once a week for a few monthes) in order to increase my kicking and punching abilities. More and more I am becoming an enthusiast of cross-trainning. If you attend a Krav-Maga class, it is the modern symbol of cross trainning - kicks, punches, torsions, throws and that special disarming techniques. And after that, just run away...

You never mentionned. Do you cross train or in your Daito-ryu dojo it is already there ?

In Brazil, and I belive in the world, Martial Arts tend to get very phocused in their own techniques and Kata. Randori is very seldom allowed. On the contrary, I remember a match in BJJ that I applied a Nikkyo (I think it is called Nika-jo in daitoryu) and the master would advert me I could not do it. Since it was more a free-fight than a sports trainning, I did not feel it was right. The same would happen in an Aikido class should I try to be too "creative".

I have a little disagreement when you mention "I think that generally in a training environment the attackers in aikido are using unrealistic overly co-opporative attacks. Many not letting the defence be applied but doing Ukemi at the slightest touch.". It is absolutelly true ! BUT, I feel aikido techniques are very, very dangerous; I have all my wrists and elbows hurting most of the time. Therefore you MUST train in a cooperative way in order to diminish injuries. Is is much easier to train BJJ, Judo or Kick Boxing with a better free flow of movements.

Whenever I pick up a "harder" master or Uke, I hate it. The reason is that the guy thinks he is trainning in a more "realistic" way. I disagree. I GAVE him my arm in a quite artifical punch in order he could practice the movement.

I like it when it is randori, you do not know what to expect and then you have to create and addapt to the moment (even if you have to be restricted to, for instance, not punching or kicking).

Anyway, thanks a lot.

[darrianation]

Originally Posted by MuayThaiFighter

The non-traditional asian arts are usually the best ones for self-defense or street-defense.A good instructor is one who has experienced more then one style.

When considering lessons in self-defense think of what it may do for you when in need.When seeing someone do a demonstration ask yourself does this look realistic or just like show ? Does it look too complicating to use on the street ? After all it is your life.The simplest techniques are often the most effective,because they take the least amout of time to use.In reality speed is important as you don't have alot of time to get away from an attacker and unlike competitions there is no second chance.Just as important is proper technique with no hassles. Looking fancy with stances as Traditional Arts teach can actually get you hurt or killed but many schools care more about your wallet then your life. Sad but true.

No shicko dachi stance (horse stance)will save your ass.Even the toughest and meanest and biggest guy can get knocked down from a perfectly tight horse stance.

The good thing about MMA is everything is taught straight to the point,no beating around the bush kind of shit like in Traditional Arts.You learn easily and quickly to be a good fighter instead of taking years as in Traditional Arts.

A traditional artist may become a good fighter in 6-10yrs. if lucky whereas a Muay Thai practitioner or MMA will most likely only take 6 -12 months to equal the same level of a black belt in other arts.

It all depends in what you are looking for, what goals you have.

Tournament:

(Grappling)
1) BJJ
2) Submission wrestling, catch can
3) Sambo
4) Judo

(Striking)
1) Muay Thai (ring sport)
2) Boxing (ring sport)
3) Karate
4) TKD

(Mixed)
1) Vale Tudo
2) Shoot fighting
3) Other MMA

These are some good sport oriented MAs (VT also very combat oriented too)

Exercise:
1) Tae bo
2) MT
3) Boxing (cardio)
4) Karate
5) TKD
6) Or just go to the gym and run on the treadmill

Cultural
1) Chinese martial arts
2) Japanese MAs
3) Korean MAs
4) Indonesian MAs

*Etc, etc it depends on what culture you what to learn more about.

Spiritual/self-improvement
1) Tai chi guan (sp?)
2) Aikido
3) Internal MAs (many Chinese MAs)
4) Yoga (not a MA)

Self-defense
1) JKD
2) Krav Maga
3) Systema
4) Darrianation Jitsu (He, he, he)

· Basically non-traditional- modern and reality based MAs!

What’s important in self-defense training?

Instructor should have real word experience such as someone who has served in the military and has been in combat, an experienced police officer, bodyguard, doormen, and etc.

The training needs to be based on modern day scientific methodologies, using realistic principles of neuro-muscular memorization and realistic scenario training.

The system should change as new knowledge or evidence comes along. Techniques and tactics must be based on evidence and proof from the real world, and not just in theory.

The school needs to teach:

1) Physiological and mental training (Fear/anxiety/adrenaline response training)
2) Physical strength and conditioning
3) Avoidance- through awareness, verbal de-escalation, and escape.
4) Learning to fight in all ranges- Weapons, striking, clinch, and ground ranges.
5) Weapons Training- Knives, sticks, firearms, and improvised weapons. As well as non-lethal weapons such as OC sprays and etc.
6) Use of force issues.
7) First aide training

* Weapons training needs to be practical and applicable.

* If the system doesn’t teach firearms that’s okay but you should seek this on your own.

If the self-defense system does not at least have these things then it is inferior to those that do!

[sherwinc]

Originally Posted by chris davis 200

here we go again!



How can you possibley say this???? most of the time those who have moved around lots picking up bits a bobs from all over the place have little practical knowledge of how to use the key principles of any of the arts they have 'trained in'. Hence the sorry state of affairs in the MA world today!

MMA is not the same as above they generally train in a set catalogue of techniques applicable to the competition format they will partake in, they train hard, and alot - giving them the best chance to win their competitions.

'Self defence' guys that have just moved from art to art picking up what they can do (ignoring what they cant figure out) tend to have little real skill in comparison to a fighter that has specialised for the same amount of time.

Arts like, BJJ, MT, (some) Karate, (some) chinese Kung Fu, Silat, Kali etc etc all have enough in their sylabuses to produce excellent fighters. If you studied and specialised in one for 7 years you would do better i believe than if you hoped from one to the other after just a year.

These arts are too complicated and deep in principle for you to master them in just a year.

Find an AUTHENTIC teacher that has a deep, all encompasing knowledge of their art! You will get more than some guy that has trained a little in alot of systems!



Also take into account that many arts teach you effective striking for point scoring ring sports but will not deal directly with a large rough street fighter. I see alot of physically small girls doing arts like muay thai and i think - i KNOW that if you punched me in the face or kneed my ribs it would not effect good enough damage to stop me (if i was intent on doing you damage!)

Put quite simply, Saying that Traditional arts teach you useless stances etc is just totally untrue! Most of what pass for traditional arts in the west are quite simpley MC dojos. I know traditional fighters that could / have defended themselves against multiple opponents, knife attackes, larger opponents, boxers, etc - I am one of them!

The misconception is that Traditional fighters dont: train hard, do conditioning, spar, work on realistic street defences, train repetative simple weapons, strike pads, strike bags, do ground work, etc etc - QUITE simpley THEY DO ALL OF THIS!

But they also adhear to the tried and tested combat alignment principles of traditional systems, they study the human body to a great extent, working with and against relex responce reations, automated defence actions, vunerable targets, multiple attacker conciderations, fight or flight responce etc etc.

Many people think that these are new concepts, new ideas and that they people that had to fight (for their lives) over thousands of years had not figured these basics out! Come off it! I have seen NOTHING that is NOTHING in modern combat systems that is not already present in old combat systems. Most of it has just been repackaged as 'the NEW and improved ....'



Ya dont say!! if you really think this is a fighting stance you have NO understanding at all! This stance is designed to increase leg power, is used after some throwing methods to maintain a strong posture allowing you to drop an knee into the guy who has just gone head first into the concrete. YOU WOULD NOT stand in horse stance throwing punches etc - IT IS A TRAINING METHOD! if you learned differently - then you learned wrong!



Firstley Muay Thai is a traditional Martial art is it NOT? Why dont you include this in your evaluation of the Traditional systems collectively??

MMAs are combat sport training not self defence - there is a difference - yes you will be a good fighter - yes you will probably be ok on the streets, BUT you will have many many things in your arsenal that are NOT straight to the point regarding self defence - they are not relevant to self defence. Going to ground working a submittion, shooting etc - none of this large section of the mixed martial arts arsenal is really relevant to street combat.

TMA's take time YES, but this is only dependant on the practitioner.

Many MMAs train daily - going down the gym, etc etc - Mand TMA train once a week as a hobby. BUT those that train the TMAs properly - training hard daily, working with bags, doing what traditional masters did, become excellent fighters in a similar amount of time to those MMA's that train in a similar way.

Time scales are dependant on so so many different factors that you cannot effectively compare the speed at which TMA's and MMAs turn out profficient fighters.

You seem to have been soured by a TMA's school and thus spouting rubbish about ALL TMA's i have mainly trained traditional.

i worked as a doorman and have had many many ecounters. using Traditional systems i stay safe and keep others safe - you quite simpley do not understand traditional systems - neither do many others - that is fine, but dont pretend you do and make rubbish up based on what little knowledge you have. I mean are you saying that modern systems like Aikido, Judo etc are more applicable than arts created far earlier than them like Muay Thai etc??

once again a fictional view of the world of Martial arts curtosy MTF!

Cheers
Chris

True, True all True......

i have no comment cause its all True......