on bitting and gouging: naban

[krys]

What follows has been taken from
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bando/kachin.html,
the complete article exceeds the allowed character number and I posted just part of it....
I would like to know the opinion of other graplers on this:

Naban or Grappling

In the Kachin systems there really is not a concept of grappling only as grappling was viewed as just a part of fighting. Our grappling is very much about control. You always want enough control that when in a bad position you can not be hit and when in a good position you can Fouling tactics such as biting and gouging are always taken into consideration simply because they are always an option and must be protected against and set up to be used.

One of the most important aspects is the neutralization of bad positions as in the ability to stop a person from submitting or striking you from the mount. If you can stop the guy from hurting you it is believed that you will not lose if need be you would turn it int a war of attrition. Each dominat position will have a coresponding nuetralization and the first step is learning to maintain basic positions ,Nuetralizing them, and escaping them at higher levels the submission itself becomes the position.

I am going to cover some striking on the ground from these positions along with fouling tactics such as biting and gouging. I want to cover the basic idea of these techniques before escapes and subs as they really help set up subs abd can finish themselves.

I was going to start with biting. The Kachin systems take biting to a level that it is almost an art upon itself. Biting has a huge impact in a fight or combat as there is a lot of blood, body parts can be removed, and the psychological ramification of being bitten. Many times the person who is bit will go it to shock if they realize something has been bitten off. The pain involved is viewed as secondary to produce a reaction and either set up a finish or achieve a better position. Biting certain areas can have potentially lethal effects.

Before I go on I want make sure this is appropriate here as I tend to go over board. This is going to be a description of when where and how to bite and illustrate potential reactions to the bite we will be viwing cannabalism as technique.

By the way I am a vegetarian but when I say bite I am talking opponent is a T-bone steak

Biting

Before I go over offensive bitting I was going to touch on the basic ideas and concepts of the bite. Remember this is in desciption of Kachin groundfighting so I will stick with the biting while on the ground. Several things that are very important and can be experimented with when defending the bite. The first is that at alltimes you must be maintaining contact with the neeck and head or have your body weight on hes jawline so he can not create the space to bite the other is if he does get his open mouth on you you must force the bodypart deeper into his mouth and at the same time exert pressure on the back of the skull so that you are forcing the skull foward toward the bodypart this way you are making it so that he can not close his mouth.

Biting will not necessarilly terminate the fight but will definatly elicit a responce the difference between defending the bite properly and not defending it can be huge. I am going to share info about two of my students who were bitten in fights.

The first guy came from a sport Bjj background and even when he trained his focus was always more straight sport based submission grappling and less self defense oriented he was a fairly good grappler. He got in a fight with a bigger stronger guy outside a bar in Jersey City and it was one of those stupid ego based fights. He did not like to consider biting or striking in his ground training and paid the price. this is from his and his girlfriends description He took his opponent down and was in guard reversed and got mount the opponent did not get off a strike that landed. Opponent rolled to stomach alex put the hoks in and went for rear naked his opponent bit his foream alex panicked and opponent started to gat up . He took the guy back down and got side ride now the guy turns into him and bites his abdomen really good now alex pops him a couple times and the guy rolls over again this time alex puts the hooks in and is more careful with the rear naked and chokes the guy unconscious and gets up leaving him there.

Because of alex's not wanting to train for real life he not only gets bit once but also a second time the bites did not end the fight but definatly created oppurtunities that the other guy could have capitalized on.

The next one is the story of a guy who is a cop and loves to train for reality. Pat is a persons worst nightmare.5'11" 250 lbs former powerlifter/bodybuilder probably the most useable strength of anyone I have ever met, guy has unreal endurance and the heart of a lion. He is making an arrest on a guy 6'0"tall and 210 or so and the guy is on crack .Pat tries to get the guy to go with him calmly and the guy attacks him . Pat takes him down right into a rear mount with the hooks in and starts to go for a sloppy rear naked thinking he just wants to control the guy and cuff him not hurt him. The guy starts to bite Pat's hand at the base of the thumb Pat immediatly counters the bite driving the hand further into the mouth and shifts into a neck crank the guy stops fighting and is cuffed and taken away.

By learning proper counters to the bite pat avoided a messy situation and by ignoring the bite alex has 2 really nice scars to show for it He still won wich is important but he paid a price. Both guys needed treatment for their bites but due to Pat countering his he sustained much less damage.


First thing to remember when biting is the idea you are going to have a warm salty taste in your mouthe and when biting something like the nose you may have a hunk of flesh in your mouth. It is important to visualize this when practicing so you do not panic when it happens. You also need to get over the psychological revulsion to biting

I genearally tell my students to spit anything that comes off at your opponent as it lets him know he lost a body part. If you have blood in your mouth spray it at him. You want to maximize the shock value of having bit him.

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Facial biting

The first area we will cover is the biting the face area and neck this is generaly the most devestating are of the body to bite for several reasons. The head and neck area give a tremendous amount of control, it is psychogically overwhelming due ti increasing fear, many nerve endings increasing pain, mor potential for severe damge.

The ears and nose are two of the easiesr body parts to remove as there is no bony structure to grind through. when biting this area it is very important not to panic and swallow if you have severed something as it is easy to choke on. From experiance I can vouch for the fact that when biting an ear the volume of blood is incredible, Ihave been told with the nose it is even worse.

Remember when having bit thes areas your opponent is at a srious disadvantage if he wished to continue the fight as he is bleeding profusly. Other than the typical revulsion and panic at the thought of having been bit the initial reaction to the bite will be to try and pull away from it and move his hands toward the area. when biting the nose you will have the added advantage of both affecting his breathing and vision.

Next up other facial areas


Biting of other facial and neck areas. Another good area of the face to bite is the flleshy areas on the side of the face over teeth (cheeks ) they can be bitten through and torn off this area is very good for biting as it has a lot of nerve endings and even pinching it hurts the general area to head for is near wher the upper and lower jaw come together bite through there and tear down toward the chin area and you shoud peel a nice strip. It will be one of the more painfull bites while also filling your opponents mouth with blood he will feel as though drowning. When you bite he will try to jerk the head up and away wich will actually help you pull the strip off.

Bithing the lips The lips will be less painful than the nose and cheek but more painfull than the ears The lips being bitten is very noticable to the person as you are going to be in the center of his face. Once again he will get a lot of blood in his mouth also of on the bottom he will be getting blood up his nose. He will struggle to push you away as opposed to pulling away himself this is a direct bite as the nose was bite through pull off spit out.

These bites are more pain , panic, damage , heavy bleeding bites and are not generally lethal your opponent will generally live they will take the fight out of them and will either finsh him or set up an easy finish. Other areas around the face can be bitten like eybrow area and under the eyes these bites are more difficult to execute and less damaging because the bony strcture make penetration to a good bite difficult.

Next up the neck area Many potentially lethal bites.

By the way remember this is not for practicing on your brother or buddies after a night of drinking

Remember in the immortal word of Idi Amin IF YA CANT BEAT EM EAT EM


time to play dracula

We will move down to the neck area. The neck is a great place to bite as there is a great deal of soft tissue. Unerneath the tissue is potentially lethal targets. your first target will be the esophagus/adams apple. it is important to open wide and bite down hard as the area is grisly once your teeth come together grind your teeth and tear back. Your opponent will curl his neck and chin into the bite. he will drown on his own blood. this was a potentially leathal bite. next is biting deeply into either the carotoid artery area. jugular vein area or the vegus nerve sheath all three will be potentially lethal the opponent will curl into the bite and attempt to push you away this is a deep grinding bit ripping back out when the teeth come together. If biting through the vegus nerve sheath opponent will start to vomit.With the above neck bites if the opponent does not die they will go into shock as the blood pressure plummets.

The other parts of the neck including the back of the neck are good targets as they get an exaggerated reaction due to all the nerve tissue. When biting the other neck areas opponent will pull away


targets of the upper torso the targets of the upper torso for biting are excellant for creating space setting up escapes and submissions. Remember you are not counting on these to be fight enders merely set ups for other things we will concentrate on the torso above the waistline.

Your first target of opportunity is the trap muscle area. this is an area for a deep bite your opponent is will curl into it and temporarily have difficulty using that arm excellent for setting arm submissions and escaping.very good from both bottom ride and mount. Next is the nipple wich causes extreme pain your opponent will both push you and try to wiggle away this may be the single best bite to set up escapes from the bottom and arm locks from the side. Next up is the pec muscle itself wich is less painful than the nipples and your opponent will try and push you away this becomes interchangable with the nipple positionally and for similar setups.

these are all deep bites and are excellant setups.

I just realized I am starting to go a little far into the biting aspect. would those following this thread prefer I stay with the biting aspect of Kachin grappling or go back to some other aspect and if some other aspect I am looking for what you would like to hear about.





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Kidney is excellent as the person will arche their back exposing the neck to chokes or strikes to the back of the neck this is a tearing bit and the after affects will be discomfort using hips and side to side movement.

The lats are a deep pulling bite ad get the person to wiggle and flair his arm exposing it and will also stop someone trying to stand up with you on their back


To add to the conversation for the people reading this when Phil goes over the biting it really can be an eye opening experience. Most people say things like oh I would bite him or gouge his eyes all I can say is this system has an almost scientific approach to biting.

I was rolling with him one time and he pt his mouth over my nose and blew air forcefully into me causing absolute panic. Until you experience some of this stuff you don't understand the effectiveness.

As to the grappling It has a very different spacial relationship than BJJ and I have always felt the positioning has a much heavier feel. When rolling with Phil he feels like a 300 lb snake wrapped around you. If he gets mount your breath is sucked away it is tough to describe.

MS


Now on to the arms

Biting the arms can be extremely effective in a fighting situation as you will be damaging one of his potential weapons . Biting is one of your quickest and hardest to defend against weapons if someone grabs hold of you. a perfect example is take the lapel grab . I see people try and pull complex moves off to deal with this when the easist thing to do when someone really grabs and pulls you is trap the hand reach acrross at the elbow and take a cunk out of the forearm preferably along the radial nerve.

We are also very big on this when dealing with weapons clear control neutralize and if the person radial nerve is severed he can no longer use his weapon.

We will start though with potential targets of the arm. The Bicep and tricep are good target. along with the forearm both radial and ulnar side. The hands themselves are good targets. The fingers are excellant targets especially for setting something else up. If you want the straight armbar try sticking his fingers in your mouth clamp down on them and go for the armbar and see how easy you get it.

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A good example of using a bite to set up the submission would be when you are going for the fig 4, entangled armbar, keylock, whatever you choose to call it. picture being in the side ride and you are having trouble finishing it your opponent is just too strong or slippery. Just put your face on the inside of his arm between the bicep and tricep. Now while continuing to attempt the sub bite his arm. Now very important is to bite and hold on he will freeze for a second and when he does complete the submission.

By the way when I mention finish the sub I am assuming break and dislocate as if you just bit him it probably is not a friendly roll or sport tourney.




biting the legs hips and crotch area

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[JaredExtreme]

Reading this actually made me feel a bit sick in the stomach. However I do think this is a good example an unconventional fighting style that is out there. I will definitely remember the tip about shoving the body part that is being bitten back into the biter's throat. Very good article.

[krys]

I like this concept, also the idea of spitting blood/body parts to your opponent's face in order to increase his panic....
The concept of bitting the penis/testicles is particularly horrible but it can happen..... I hope I will never have to go that far....

[Nick]

That sounds nice, but I'd rather not contract STD's... besides, can biting and gouging alone save you? I always thoght of them more as a distraction or an opener so you could use a more powerful technique.

Later...

[krys]

Naban is the name of the Kachin's peoples (Burma) complete grappling system, they also have standup (burmese bare knuckle boxing), weapons (thaing)......... biting and gouging are part of their grapling arsenal as well as chokes, dislocations, you need to read the full article..........

Chances you get an STD aren't that big if you spit out blood&bits right away..... besides if you bite your opponent deep in vital areas (adam's aple, jugular vein........) further techniques won't be necessary....

[Nick]

Well, first I'd rather mix BJJ techniques with dirty fighting, second, I don't think spitting stuff out would prevent STDs... how can you get rid of every little bit of blood?

Later...

[krys]

Well, first I'd rather mix BJJ techniques with dirty fighting, second, I don't think spitting stuff out would prevent STDs... how can you get rid of every little bit of blood?

Later...

I mix bjj-combat judo on the ground with silat dirty fighting and it works well...
In naban/(good)silat grapling is mixed with dirty fighting from the start. If you don't have access to such a system it is better to learn bjj first in order to get sound foundations on the ground, you can add those techniques to your curriculum later...

About using it in combat I think it is a matter of opportunity and wouldn't be too choosy in the street....If your gums are not bleeding I don't think the risk is too important... anyway in a life and death situation I wouldn't care....

[uk-ufc-kid]

welcome to the real world of fighting, in a real fight you would use these frowned upon weapons( biting gouging) i've never herd of this style b4 but it sounds like one of the most efective as more than half of street fights go to the floor thats y bjj is so effective ans no one nos wat to do once on the floor