"Hard" or "Soft" MA=BS?

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I have haerd and been told there are 2 types of MA, Hard and Soft. Hard being Muay Thai, Shaolin Kung fu, boxing, karate, tkd, etc. And Soft being Taichi, Judo, etc. I would have posted this in the chinese martial arts section but I know I'm gunna get blasted with biased point of views so I posted it here. So is there really such a thing? I personally think that there is no difference in Martial Arts but I would like to clarify with you guys.

Edit:I checked in some of the Chinese MA forums, I think in english it is "external and internal" instead of "hard or soft". I may be wrong.

[KungfuJeremy]

well in my opinion many styles have both hard and soft incorparated movements in them.

It depends on the belief system of the art, on whether if its hard or soft.
My guess is that if your style has you use muscles to attack than its a hard system or if your style has you stay relaxed and using as little muscle as possible to be a soft system.

In the shaolin kungfu that i do, my teacher has us stay soft and only use a little bit of muscle on contact. So im really not sure what style is hard vs. what is soft but i guess my kungfu is more soft than it is hard.

Again thats only my opinion and guess, im not saying im right.

[Nick]

Many "soft" styles rely on deflecting attacks then flipping them over by their pinky and putting them in a fancy wrist lock.

I guess the grappling in BJJ could be considered "soft", too.

Later...

[Thai Bri]

I also believe in the "hard" and "soft" elements, and agree that many arts have elements of each.

Grabbing a guy in BJJ and trying to pull him down is "hard" - letting him grab you and, as he pulls, your willingly go that way to trap him with another move? Thats "soft".

Soft is harder to apply than hard. It takes great experience and skill. It is working on a different level. However, for self defence fighting the length of time it takes to apply can make it superfluous.

In the words of Geof Thimpson - Learn to hit f'''king hard"

[IPON]

I agree with everyone that all MAs do contain hard/soft techniques to some degree. But there is a differnce between hard/soft techniques and and internal/external MA styles. The orientation/philosophy of the style to be either internal or external looks at the use, conditioning and manipulation (yours and of your opponents) of chi/ki for internal styles and the use and conditioning of muscular power/force for external. I am almost being oversimplistic (but I don't want to type a novel).

Now for Jujutsu (whatever ryu), a lot of soft techniques but I have always considered the style as external. And ThaiBri is correct, In a nutshell....external is easier to learn and results can be seen quickly whereas internal styles, to be effective, take a long time to train to be effective.

Which is better internal vs external can be debated on another thread.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I also believe in the "hard" and "soft" elements, and agree that many arts have elements of each.

Yeah, and I'm thinking you're more the latter than the former as that pension looms on the horizon.

Most techniques can be done 'hard' or 'soft' depending on what you want to get done.

And Ipon is correct, there is a distinct difference between hard/soft and internal/external.

As Ipon says, BJJExpertise can start a new thread on that one.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

what distinguishes the difference between hard and soft? Is Bjj considered soft?

[kengar]

And Soft being Taichi, Judo, etc.

I wouldn't classify Judo in the Soft area. What Ipon said.

[Serrada]

Judo and BJJ are hard arts. But, you will get worked if you stay hard. Judo just means the gentle way of JJ. The best way to be with any art IMHO is like Lee always said, “be like water” for example if you fall out of a plane at 30K feet the impact you have on concrete vs water is the exact same. But at lower velocities water is softer. Anyway, it cant be explained until you do it. Try do everything soft and correctly and slow. Learn it. When you speed up do it hard enough to make it work. Achieving this ratio equals added speed. Also, not fighting force with force teaches you to flow to the next move and deflect energy conserving energy. Well that’s my $0.02.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Well how can one incorporate "soft fighting" into grappling? Any examples that i could follow as a beginner? And why isn't judo considered a soft art, the principles seem to be that of a soft art(unbalancing, enemy pushes you pull, etc)?

[IPON]

Originally Posted by Bjjexpertise@be

Well how can one incorporate "soft fighting" into grappling? Any examples that i could follow as a beginner? And why isn't judo considered a soft art, the principles seem to be that of a soft art(unbalancing, enemy pushes you pull, etc)?

No offense man but this is the main reason why you cannot learn MA just from reading a book. You need to study under an experienced instructor. All you are doing now is putting the cart before the horse

[chris davis 200]

I dont think you guys are on the right track to be honest. IMO

Internal or soft - refers to the contitioning of internal strength / non obvious force. This is not necisarily chi/ki or whatever. But is more to do with tendon and bone usage.

External or hard - refers to overt obvious force - the use of muscular strength and conditioning to achieve a goal.

BUT - this does not mean that all arts that dont rely on muscular stength are internal. The are still external because the use of muscals is still apparant even if this use is the yeilding to a force.

Internal arts developed to use the internal alignment of the bones, the tendon structure of the body (used to store and release potential energy), the pressures of the internal systems as the body is contorted - causing a higher pressure in certian areas and a lower pressure in others to add force to strikes etc.

this is quite difficult to understnad - but let me try to explain it this way - if you strain heavily so that you face goes red - you will have increased the pressure in your head - as a result you will get increased weight in your head. although not used in this manner at all - this is an example of changing the pressure inside the body.

all of the above factors refer to internal.

BUT - in internal arts external power from muscles is also generated - but this is not the primary goal.

Because the internal systems seemed to produce huge force from relativeley little movement (due to the release of potential energy from the tendons) - mysticism and folklore surrounded the masters.

If we look at the main 3 internal systems from China - Tai chi - ba gua and hsing i.

None could be thought of as SOFT in their application. The softness refers to the training methods in my opinion.

Tai chi - this art yelds softly and attacks with connection and power. It is based on the theory of Yin and Yang - HARD and SOFT together.

Ba gua chang - this art has extremely agressive strong powerful power generation while maintaining agility in footwork. It can oppose a force completely bouncing it back at the attacker, or it can disappear from a force like it was never there.

Hsing I - the most overt style - this style has massively agressive fighting methods. Being attacked by a hsing i master is like being run over by a steel ball, there is no relent in the attack - it is a constant flow of offence - the offence defends the attackers methods by crossing the lines of force.

Soft and hard is veryu much a Chinese distinction - but i dont think it makes a difference to anyone really - what works and what doesnt is all that matters.

Cheers
Chris

[Thai Bri]

Get yerself on the "Forms" thread. I only started it because of you!

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I feel so Honored! Now where is this forms thread located???

[IPON]

Originally Posted by chris davis 200

in internal arts external power from muscles is also generated - but this is not the primary goal.

Chris - Good post!! It may seem different but what we are saying is the same. I just didn't want to type the detail so I gave the ultra simplistic version. The key is just undertsanding the difference in use of hard/soft (MA technique) and internal/external (MA Style). Now I do know that ppl refer to doing forms as hard or soft (and I have on ocassion as well) to give contrast. However, it also refers to the execution of the technique.