The Truth Regarding BJJ...

[pstevens]

I train BJJ as part of my repertoire of martial arts. Unlike most of the students in my class, I’m not into Gracie-worship... I respect them for developing aspects of ground fighting, but the idea of ground fighting has been around forever in small circles. People have been doing MMA and grappling arts in remote corners... The difference is exposure, setting and time.

If you don’t already know, let me spell it out for you — Martial arts is big business. It’s reality TV in an age where people are hooked on “live” media. The Gracies understood this. They knew that as long as BJJ remained a sport in Brazil, it was going nowhere. Their timing couldn’t be better. Several reality-based shows were already in the works — “Survivor” being the most predominant.

To the uninformed, BJJ is seemingly invincible. Afterall, they witnessed a “lanky, hollow-chested, litle guy defeat giants in UFC 1 through UFC 5. The problem is Royce Gracie was NOT undersized in comparison to the other fighters of UFC, nor was he “lanky” or “hollow chested.” He was more likely the most conditioned fighter for that particular event. He stands at 6’1” and between 175-180 lbs... That’s not small. Small is Yuki Sakai from Rickson Gracie’s documentary “Choke.” Small is being 5’6” 130 lb. and defeating guys 6’6” 250 lb. But even Royce knew his role was just to start the fire, and he bowed out when he realized people were catching on. MMA was on the horizon of media entertainment.

Rorion’s vision is near complete as thousands of people flock to learn BJJ. As you probably know by now, America is a favorable environment for Mcdojos, and there are plenty of BJJ Mcdojos out there — we’ve all heard stories or been there, but no one really says anything because of BJJ’s reputation. Don’t get me wrong, I love BJJ for what it is – another angle in the martial arts, but that’s all it really is. I’m reminded of when karate first arrived and everyone believed a reverse punch could kill. Now, I we know there’s no substitution for a jab, cross and hook.

Another problem is that within the long lineage of Jiu Jitsu pioneers, the Gracies have painted a picture of themselves as the major contributors. Jiu Jitsu was mainly a weapons art, so it is hardly true that the Gracies have brought more to the table than anyone else. Yet in all their self-promoting publications, you’ll find excerpts placing them above everyone else. They’ve even changed much of Jiu Jitsu’s history to accommodate their claims. There’s one contradicting idea that is continually forced throughout Renzo Gracie’s book, “Mastering Jujitsu.” In one paragraph, Renzo and John Danaher note that nothing is known of Fusen Ryu Jujitsu or its training methods, then later they explain that BJJ is closer to Fusen Ryu than any other style of Jiu Jitsu.

People are changing. For every BJJ who joins our club thinking he has come to enlighten, we also have others who understand that hard work is second to none. Actually, one of our trainers, Gary Campbell, who is our SD specialist and competes regularly in NHB type events makes it a point to show everyone that NO martial art is complete, not even SD... There are techniques in karate, kung-fu, BJJ and Muay Thai that just don’t work on the streets.

Paul Stevens
Northern Racquet & Fitness Club

[darrianation]

Paul Stevens this a good article. I beleive that BJJ is a great sport. It has a lot to offer someone who is looking to comlete his ground fighting skills for other MAs or MMA comptitions.

For self-defense it adds a needed component to be able to fight in all fighting ranges. But BJJ in and of it'self is far from being complete. When it comes to ground fighting and self-defense it's better to ecape back to your feet, or submit with strikes.

What I like about BJJ is mainly escaping from the bottom postition I think that this is important. However for SD I think the white through the blue belt corriculum is enough, of course I like some the purple belt techniques as well.

[CKD]

Royce did defeat people much bigger than him. I would think Gordeau and Severn were just as conditioned. But Royce is still a top mma fighter. A pretty good article though.

[CKD]

Another thing I find a problem with the Gracies is that they take away the lights from other bjj practicioners(unintentionally of course). There are many other great bjj fighters such as, Ismail, Sperry, Bustamante, Nog(who beat Sak), and the other members of the brazilian top team and brazil dojo. Also there are the great non-brazilian bjj fighters such as Genki Sudo and Elvis Sisonic.

[wardancer]

Well,
Pstevens, that was rubbish really, you sounds like you are reachinf puberty because of the rebel aspect of your post...
what about KANO and MAEDO? Both come from Jiu Jitsu background.
Hano created Judo and MAEDO was his student.
MAEDO taught his version because of the challenges he kept having to 'improve' his MA, he called it Jiu Jitsu by respect.
Anyway, there is no point to argue on arguing on who can trace the best genealogy of BJJ!
The fact is that Japanese JJ is no good as much as Karate ( and a lot of MA) because you cannot 'practice' the full range of techniques the way Judo and BJJ does during sparring.
You might despise the Gracie because they do tend to dodge fights:
They are a lot of good Brazilians BBJ out there and some of them are dam good...
However, it's feel you are biting the hand that fed you.

[wardancer]

Martial art is NOT a big business:
The other day Royce Gracie had a seminar...so what...

[Creeper]

I’m reminded of when karate first arrived and everyone believed a reverse punch could kill. Now, I we know there’s no substitution for a jab, cross and hook.

The big difference is Karate uses kata for practice and BJJ uses open sparring with full resistance. One is taught in theory, the other in physical contact. BJJ works. It has holes like every other MA, but that's why the 'magic formula' is BJJ, Boxing or Muay Thai, and Wrestling.

[T-3]

I agree creeper. I think the "key" is versatility in skills.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by Creeper

I’m reminded of when karate first arrived and everyone believed a reverse punch could kill. Now, I we know there’s no substitution for a jab, cross and hook.

The big difference is Karate uses kata for practice and BJJ uses open sparring with full resistance. One is taught in theory, the other in physical contact. BJJ works. It has holes like every other MA, but that's why the 'magic formula' is BJJ, Boxing or Muay Thai, and Wrestling.

Not all karate uses Kata for training alone. Kata is merely an aspect of training for some karate. But my point here was to show a metaphor for people's innate to celebrate something new just because it worked in it's own context. I never said BJJ doesn't work, I'm saying that it's just another angle. One has to wonder how much American Catch Wrestling would have developed if the media didn't turn it into WWE.

BTW, there is no magic formula... There's no substitute for hard work, that's the ingredient to success in the martial arts. The Gracies train before they can walk... I doubt any BJJ can just defeat a world class wrestler who has been training from day one. The underlining principle is that hard work and discipline matters in combat sports, but not necessarily on the streets. On the streets, 20 years of training can end with a bullet to the brains.

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Creeper

I’m reminded of when karate first arrived and everyone believed a reverse punch could kill. Now, I we know there’s no substitution for a jab, cross and hook.

The big difference is Karate uses kata for practice and BJJ uses open sparring with full resistance. One is taught in theory, the other in physical contact. BJJ works. It has holes like every other MA, but that's why the 'magic formula' is BJJ, Boxing or Muay Thai, and Wrestling.

Kata is the version of Shadow boxing in Karate. Kata is not Karate fighting training.
Karate uses sparring for pratice, however the intensity of the blows and restrictions of techniques makes it a difficult MA to spar with. If you spar hard, you/your training partner will get injured and will have to wait 1 month if you brake a toe for e.g., if you train soft..well..no point really.
Why I respect so much Kano (creator of Judo) is that he realized the same thing applied to JJJ. He created the randori concept (live sparring), took out all the 'dangerous' JJJ techniques inapropriate to apply on your training partner e.g spine lock, eye goouging, full power srtikes). Maedo was Kano's student. Maedo called his art Jiu Jitsu because he used his MA for open challenge MMA style (vale tudo) to prove his MA skills (something the Gracie followed on the tradition): such violent MA challenges are against Judo/Kano philosophy. Maedo also integrated more JJJ techniques in his style than the usual Judo. Now, what's amaze me, is that Maeda has only taught 2-4 years the Gracie brothers his JJ? The gracie brothers were good students but also great innovators because unlike some people would like to think: BJJ is not some obscure JJ ryu that the gracie Brothers put a Brazilian badge on and called it their on. But rather, BJJ is the creation of many people over the years.

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by pstevens

... I doubt any BJJ can just defeat a world class wrestler who has been training from day one. The underlining principle is that hard work and discipline matters in combat sports, but not necessarily on the streets. .

Prove it pstevens!
why are the brazilians winning all the time using BJJ?
Who are the world class wrestlers that are winning agains BJJ fighters in MMA events?
Do not get me wrong, i agree with your point, but I think you could name a few famous MMA fighters that comes from the wrestling school. i am sure they are plenty exemples.
I had the same argument with some loosers that thought that all Karate is useless until I came up the names of few sucessfull K1 fighters that come from karate background like Francisco Filho..andy Hug...and the list goes on..

Saying BJJ and Thai Box are the ONLY good MA because most MMA fighters come from such styles is wrong...Some other sucessfull MMA fighters may have more wider/different MA background. It is just a question to look in a bit deeper into the fighter history.

[Mr. Miyagi]

If you're a professional MMA competitor, then yeah, train in a bunch of different styles...BJJ, wrestling, muy thai, boxing. But for most people who have other lives outside MMA, and can only do one art, again BJJ, wrestling, muy thai, and boxing are all good choices; maybe judo and hapkido too.
Pro boxing is a little underrated in MMA because none of the elites have entered MMA. The money is a little too good right where they are. But those fast, devastating paws combined with a little wrestling would be a serious force to be reckoned with. Laverne Clark wasn't even an elite boxer but he still came into MMA and kicked some serious ass with pure western boxing.

Then, if you're only doing one art, there are the bad choices...all those different styles of kung fu, TKD (don't give me that "my school is different" BS), karate, aikido, etc. I hate hearing from aikido fans that they like aikido because they like the idea of 'redirecting' their assailant's attack, it makes me want to crack their jaw and see what the hell they'll do to 'redirect' my attack. Or those traditional standup guys who think that just because they get their black belt that they could take a pro boxer in a fight, stupid because they can't.
Any place that has fat people or little kids with advanced belts is to be avoided too. You know what kind of fat I mean, not the Igor Vovchanchin or Karl Malone or George Foreman type of fat, but real fat.

[Creeper]

Originally Posted by Mr. Miyagi

Or those traditional standup guys who think that just because they get their black belt that they could take a pro boxer in a fight, stupid because they can't.

The bottom line is technique vs. technique, grappling wins over striking. UFC and Pride prove that it's more effective. A good grappler with some striking skill is better than a good striker with little grappling.

BJJ gets too much credit. I enjoy training in it but I think Wrestling is under-rated. Renzo Gracie (Brazil, BJJ) against Dan Henderson (USA, Wresler) in Pride 13. Renzo couldn't take Dan down after 3 attempts. Dan took him down, locked him, and knocked him out cold in 1:22 of round one. The fight immediately before that was Allan Goes (Brazil, BJJ) against Mark Coleman (USA, Wreslter/Boxer) and Allen Goes lost so bad he thought the fight was still going after he was knocked out and woke up.

Anyway, my only point is grappling is the skill that people need to focus on as a base, not just BJJ. I think BJJ, Wreslting, or Judo provide a great starting ground then you add Muay Thai or Boxing and you're well prepared.

[CKD]

anyways I think one thing bjj has that others lack is an overall strategy. The strategy to bring the fight to the ground has brought it many victories. While a lot of people in the first UFCs had a vague notion of smashing there opponents into defeat rather than an overall strategy. I also like the game keeps evolving, in the beginning bjj people took down people with ease, then people studied the gameplan and stopped it. Through the losses including those creeper just mentioned they come up with more ways to fufill there strategy. Like in the fights Creeper just mentioned they both desperately tried to take the person down. Through these losses they came up with a new strategy of kickboxing with the opponent a little bit and then take him down. Now Allan Goes through these recent advances could probaly do much better against Kerr and same with Renzo. If you check out Goes now he seems a lot better and got a tie with Sak with his strategy. Sperry beat Igor with this strategy and the Brazilian Top Team has gotten many more victories with this strategy.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Well, Goes's draw with Sak happened years before Coleman KO'd him. He's bigger than Sak. He spent a good part of the fight on his ass scooting around, Sak figured out what to do with that and punished Belfort a few months later for butt scooting. Goes is a good fighter too, he had Sak in trouble a couple times but again, he had no standup and couldn't take him down either. He had to buttscoot like he did against Henderson.
Also, I haven' really seen any sign that Renzo has improved that he'd be able to contend with the top guys. Renzo is a good fighter and he's got balls to keep putting it on the line. But c'mon, he was tickling Sak with his standup (those kicks didn't look like they hurt at all), couldn't take Sak or Hendo down, had trouble with Newton...
Sperry did beat Igor handily and he gets props for that. But there are a couple things about that. Igor had that huge cut on his forehead that occurred during training, which opened up right away in the fight and he was bleeding profusely like a stuck pig. He's not that easy to take down, not that easy to keep down, and usually puts up much more of a fight than that..I think he was screwed up by his blood spilling all over the place. I wasn't convinced of Sperry's MMA ability in his next fight with Ninja.

Obviously Noguiera is the top bjj guy in the MMA world right now. But I think Bustamante is a damn solid fighter with good striking and good takedowns, I thought he and Quinton Jackson were pretty even in their fight and it could have gone either way. Busta has been unlucky with his career, the UFC didn't promote him enough and pay him enough, he lost that close decision with Quinton, his fight with Henderson would have been great if not for the early KO, and I really hope he gets some more chances. He really could be one of the top few LHW's in the world.