Bjj vs. Submission wrestling

[dirtynewb]

just a quick question what are the main differences between submission wrestling and Bjj? I just started submission wrestling and just thought I'd find out if there are any significant differences in the two styles

[CKD]

I don't think there is. I always considered sub wrestling a part of bjj but I guess now people are trying to make it different.

[Hermosa]

Not to go back to the pure spring of knowledge thing, but sub. wrestling is stolen from bjj. A bunch of guys found out that with a little wrestling and a few footlocks ...you can really give a bjj guy a good run as long as you force him to take off the gi.

Sub. wrestling is an ego trip (in my humble opinion). It is MUCH sloppier than BJJ. It is for people who refuse to start the VERY long journey to blackbelt with the gi. It is quick, and gets you results..much like the Atkins diet, but years down the road it breaks you down and leaves you empty.

Even in Royler Gracies' book "Submission Grappling Techniques" he emphasizes that what makes him so good is that he has trained with the gi his whole life. And he definately emphasizes the importance of beginers learning with the gi. The gi builds a very important foundation that teaches you to survive just about ANYTHING.

oh well..this is what I think anyway.

[CKD]

I would defenitely start gi before no gi. 75% of adcc winners were from jiu-jitsu backrounds, combine that with other arts that train with the gi and one abu dahbi and you get a whole lot of people. This is just like the people skipping the process of vale tudo in bjj. They do not get a good grappling base down with gi and no gi and go into competetions and emberass themselves. I would highly suggest(like many other people in bjj) that you get a good grappling base down before you go into vale tudo. A natural progression is gi bjj, no gi bjj, and then vale tudo bjj. Its just like these gyms that try to teach it all at once instead of getting the base, they never produce great fighters. Good thing most bjj schools force the progression, probaly have to visit a non bjj gym to skip it.

[sherwinc]

Originally Posted by dirtynewb

just a quick question what are the main differences between submission wrestling and Bjj? I just started submission wrestling and just thought I'd find out if there are any significant differences in the two styles

if you compare Brazilian Jui-Jitsu versus Japanese Jui-Jitsu versus Submission Wrestling.....

i'll rather vote Japanese Jui-Jitsu...... its a very brutal kind of art compare to the remaining two.....

[dirtynewb]

so the only difference is that when I'm wrestling i'm not wearing a gi? Why is that supposed to be such a big deal??? just keep in mind I am a newb, so I'm just wondering......

[IPON]

Originally Posted by Hermosa

Sub. wrestling is an ego trip (in my humble opinion). It is MUCH sloppier than BJJ.

Interesting, I assumed the summission wrestling was an offshoot of catch wrestling. If so it would actually be the opposite that catch influened BJJ as Mateda?? (can't remember the name) who introduced JJJ and Judo to teh Gracies learnd a lot from the challenge matches with catch wrestlers. I am not saying you are wrong I don't know the answer.

[jules]

Ippon,
I don't think that Sub-wrestling is a Catch offshot. It's a mix of real wrestling, No-gi bjj and footlocks IMHO. The thing about catch is that there are no "Catch guys" in any of the major tournaments. I have heard catch guys claim that Shamrock was catch... well I haven't heard Shamrock say that he does catch. I say Sub-wrestling is exactly what it is. Submissions mixed in with Wrestling controll/movements.

[squidd]

Originally Posted by dirtynewb

so the only difference is that when I'm wrestling i'm not wearing a gi? Why is that supposed to be such a big deal??? just keep in mind I am a newb, so I'm just wondering......

i think the big deal is in that gi training teaches you the points of control. i share the opinion of people who believe that gi training instills good fundamentals. i am now only just beginning to learn the points of control but by the stretch of an imagination, i think i understand how knowing these points will allow me to control an opponent without a gi.

[JaredExtreme]

I don't think there's one solid definition of sub wrestling. IMO sub wrestling is simply grappling for submissions without a gi on.

However, not having a gi on makes a HUGE difference in how you grapple. Normally when rolling in jiu-jitsu the pace is a bit slower and methodical. You have the gi and pants to hold onto and you must be warying of collar/sleeve chokes.

When the gi comes off the game changes dramatically. There are no longer pants to control your opponent's lower body and both of you very quickly become sweaty, which makes applying submissions much more difficult.

Just like everyone else I think that it's best to start by learning traditional BJJ, moving onto subwrestling, then vale tudo. It's best to master the basics early on as opposed to later. It's kind of like math, you need to know how to add before you can divide.

[dirtynewb]

Originally Posted by JaredExtreme

I don't think there's one solid definition of sub wrestling. IMO sub wrestling is simply grappling for submissions without a gi on.

However, not having a gi on makes a HUGE difference in how you grapple. Normally when rolling in jiu-jitsu the pace is a bit slower and methodical. You have the gi and pants to hold onto and you must be warying of collar/sleeve chokes.

When the gi comes off the game changes dramatically. There are no longer pants to control your opponent's lower body and both of you very quickly become sweaty, which makes applying submissions much more difficult.

Just like everyone else I think that it's best to start by learning traditional BJJ, moving onto subwrestling, then vale tudo. It's best to master the basics early on as opposed to later. It's kind of like math, you need to know how to add before you can divide.

Okay I think you just answered my question perfectly, and you did it without bashing what I'm doing. I was looking at it from the view: "learning to wrestle with a gi would be completly useless cause of all of the extra clothing you have too grab onto. When you dont have a gi your sweaty and basically its harder to get a hold of your opponent but more practical for application." But I like how you put it that starting out with a gi, is more like learning the basics.
And after talking to a few people I wish my gym did teach bjj, but the instructor only teaches sub-wrestling for now, there are a few other bjj schools around, but I checked them out and I got that Mcdojo feel from them. Anyways thanks for your replys if theres anything else you guys can think of "post up." But as of now I've got to stick with the sub-wrestling

[IPON]

Originally Posted by jules

I have heard catch guys claim that Shamrock was catch... well I haven't heard Shamrock say that he does catch.

Interesting. I agree I would not have thought he had involvement with catch

[dirtynewb]

Originally Posted by IPON

Interesting. I agree I would not have thought he had involvement with catch

what is catch? is it just wrestling with submissions or what?

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by Hermosa

Not to go back to the pure spring of knowledge thing, but sub. wrestling is stolen from bjj. A bunch of guys found out that with a little wrestling and a few footlocks ...you can really give a bjj guy a good run as long as you force him to take off the gi.

Sub. wrestling is an ego trip (in my humble opinion). It is MUCH sloppier than BJJ. It is for people who refuse to start the VERY long journey to blackbelt with the gi. It is quick, and gets you results..much like the Atkins diet, but years down the road it breaks you down and leaves you empty.

Even in Royler Gracies' book "Submission Grappling Techniques" he emphasizes that what makes him so good is that he has trained with the gi his whole life. And he definately emphasizes the importance of beginers learning with the gi. The gi builds a very important foundation that teaches you to survive just about ANYTHING.

oh well..this is what I think anyway.

That's because like the minions, you have a bias towards BJJ. If you want to talk about the spring, BJJ copied Kosen Ryu and aspects of Judo. I mean, how much of BJJ is actually Brazilian and how much is Japanese? There's a discrepancy in BJJ. The Gracies claim that they developed Jiu Jitsu further than any of their predecessors by fighting in NHB style matches. Maedo did the same, so did a host of other Jiu Jitsu fighters who USED the groundfighting principle as a means of victory. In fact, it was Maedo who instilled this idea to the Gracie's... Are to we to assume that during all this time, Maedo didn't develop anything while the Gracies developed all aspects of ground fighting? That idea seems far-fetched.

Back to submissions wrestling. It shares some techniques with BJJ, but it is based on many forms of grappling: sambo, judo, catch wrestling. That doesn't mean it's a copy. I know that BJJ has begun to incorporate Muay Thai and sambo... Does that mean BJJ is a copycat? You would do well to forget styles and who learned from where... Train hard that's all that matters.

[CKD]

Well basically I think we all agree that there needs to be progression. If you are in bjj you will learn sport bjj with a gi, sport bjj without a gi, and then go and learn vale tudo bjj. In this interview http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/interviews/esfiha/ note(when he said vale tudo he meant the vale tudo portion of bjj is what there talking about) He talks about progression. You can find that in other interviews on that site as well.