BJJ points system

[Thai Bri]

The points system in BJJ will kill it off as an effective real fighting art.

Discuss!

[IPON]

Gaining the "Mount position" is worth 4 points.
This is where one competitor sits astride a prone opponent with both legs in a kneeling down position. The bottom competitor is lying on his back. This is considered highly advantageous in a vale tudo or streetfight situation, so is awarded accordingly.

Gaining the "Rear Mount position" is worth 4 points.
This is where one competitor sits astride a prone opponent, who is lying face down with both legs in a kneeling down position. This is considered highly advantageous in a vale tudo or streetfight situation, so is awarded accordingly.

"Passing the guard" is worth 3 points.
The guard is a position where one competitor lying on their back wraps their legs around their opponent who is often kneeling between the legs. Opponent is in "your" guard if the opponent is in between your legs. "Passing the guard" consists of getting out of the opponent's "guard" position (opponent with legs wrapped around your trunk) and going to the "cross-side" position or "side-mount" using various techniques. "Side-mount" position consists of one competitor lying prone on their back with their opponent on top in a relative perpendicular position keeping the bottom competitor down.

"Takedown" is worth 2 points.
Bringing down your opponent from the standing position using footsweeps, judo throws, tackles while you maintain an "advantageous" position.

"Knee-on-stomach" position is worth 2 points.
Often from the "cross-side" position, the competitor on top "jumps" up and places one knee on the bottom competitor's stomach to keep him down. From this position, the top competitor can choke and of course strike the face in a vale tudo or streetfight situation.

"Sweeps" is worth 2 points.
Using the legs to reverse the opponent in your guard to the bottom position while you get on top.


Just thought I would add for discussion

[CKD]

O.K. Why will it kill it off? I do prefer the old ways they did it. According to Carley Gracie matches were ussually sport but they also had the option of taking off the gis and fight full contact with punches and kicks http://www.gracie.com/pubs/riostory1.html The system is pretty good, it awards points for gaining positional dominance which is a good habit to get into when you fight for real. It also provides an outlet for those who do not want to do vale tudo. Sport bjj is a new thing and before the only thing you could fight in was VT if you were in bjj. But now people studying bjj who do not want do fight VT but want to compete can do sport bjj. It also is a good intermediate step between vale tudo. Only problem I have with sports competition is that some schools now only practice for sport and ignore the two other aspects of bjj, self defense and vale tudo.

[IPON]

I guess my commeent will be in terms of sport JJ I agree, but (and I mabe wrong) the point system is for Gi/non Gi sport but not Vale tudo. The problem like all MAs there will be schools which only focus on teh sport aspect and not SD or VT. So students may develop a false sense of ability for actual SD.

[Thai Bri]

But the focus becomes moving from position to position to build up these points.......NOT beating the opponent in a realistic way. So, over time, the whole focus of tactics and technique will be on this "game".

Mark my words you young pup!

[CKD]

Well most people try to hold the position so they can submit the person rather than racking up points. Americans have done some good and bad things to the game. They incorperated more wrestling clinches and takedowns and know every bjj school has incorperated that. But they also brought the other bad part of the wrestling game. Stalling. Now there are some competitors that just get ahead on points and just sit there without trying to submit the opponent.In Brazil this never happened because people all knew the purpose was to submit the other. But know they have to create new rules to discourage stalling.

[DJColdfusion]

Originally Posted by CKD

. . .But they also brought the other bad part of the wrestling game. Stalling.

Great! Another genius who knows NOTHING about wrestling. Wrestling has very strict rules already in place about stalling. HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED AN ACTUAL WRESTLING MATCH?

BJJ created the acceptability of stalling in its own game. Wrestling as a sport does not accept stalling, and it never has accepted stalling.

On another note, stalling in sport BJJ competition is one of the reasons it will NEVER gain wide acceptance in the USA. Audiences in the USA want to see action. They will only pay to see action. The sport must evolve, and perhaps some of the submission grappling organizations in the country are already on their way to doing that.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Wrestling refs, like bjj refs, are supposed to make calls if one of the competitors stalls. Both sports, ideally, do not accept stalling.

Besides the rear mount listed above, taking the back in any form is worth 4 points.

A near sub is worth an advantage, which is used if points are equal. Defining an advantage is the ref's call, and I've seen things that didn't look anywhere close to a sub get called as an advantage. Also, the position is supposed to be established, for example if you moved from side control to the mount but immedietely got rolled, you wouldn't get points for gaining the mount.

These positions are supposed to signify dominance in a real fight and for the most part, they do. As I brought up in another thread, the fight between Wallid Ismael and Akira Shoji put things in a different light. Wallid took Shoji down several times, passed guard a few times, and mounted him twice. That's lots of points for Wallid and no points for Shoji at the time the fight was stopped due to punches, that Shoji was dishing out, not Wallid. So, even if Wallid would have been up some 20-0 by bjj rules, he still got TKO'd at the end. Because bjj doesn't give points for escaping positions or rolling someone, but Wallid got rolled from the mount twice and ended up in the butt scoot position with Shoji standing over him. So, those bjj points give you a good idea of how a real fight may turn out, but in this case, it wasn't the final word.

The Abu Dhabi rules were especially sketchy. The idea was that there would be no points for the first five minutes, that way competitors could work on subs without worrying about points. But there was no clock on display, The Sheik decided when he felt like five minutes had gone by and also scored the matches. There were some questionable calls involved with this, which did affect outcomes.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by DJColdfusion

Wrestling as a sport does not accept stalling, and it never has accepted stalling.

100% correct, you will loose point s and loose the match

Originally Posted by DJColdfusion

They will only pay to see action. The sport must evolve, and perhaps some of the submission grappling organizations in the country are already on their way to doing that.

Interesting point as this was the reason that Kano eliminated a lot of the grappling in Judo. And now we are seeing more standup in events like UFC. Just an observation

[TylerDurden]

If more and more schools teach to play for points then yes it could lead to a watering down of BJJ as a whole. But as long as there is a strong vale tudo/MMA core of BJJ players there will always be places to train that train it the way it should be done.

And something should be done about stalling as more competitors are sitting and waiting, only to try something in the last 30 seconds to win by a point or two.

[CKD]

quote"Great! Another genius who knows NOTHING about wrestling. Wrestling has very strict rules already in place about stalling. HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED AN ACTUAL WRESTLING MATCH?

BJJ created the acceptability of stalling in its own game. Wrestling as a sport does not accept stalling, and it never has accepted stalling."
Getting the across side and holding him down is stalling in bjj but in wrestling it the way to win the match so it is not stalling. But as long as schools teach the vale tudo and self defense part of bjj I am fine with it.

[akja]

Stalling is like a double edged sword.

If I'm in the guard and you can't do anything to me I'm stalling, but why isn't your game good enough to do something to me while your in my guard.

It goes both ways. Sport or street the better position leads to better control. BJJ is about positions and control. BJJ is becoming a lot like Judo in the sport respect but from any position standing or on the ground being in control and a better position is where I want to be.

[JaredExtreme]

Like others have said, the point system emphasizes dominant position. When someone acheives the mount, sidemount, or back they are awarded a large amount of points because these are the position where you can inflict the most damage in a real fight. However, the primary goal of tournament BJJ isn't to rack up points, but to SUBMIT your opponent. Once someone submits, the match is over. Points only matter if no one taps out or goes unconcious.

That being said, I think most of us in BJJ realize that many aspects of tournament BJJ do not directly carry over to real world self-defense. Most of us for example aren't going to jump to guard if we get in a barfight or try for a fancy omoplata in a dark alley.

I also want to say that even though it has it's shortcomings, tournament BJJ is still a much more realistic test of self-defense capability than the other major MA such as karate and TKD which employ point striking or judo which emphasizes the throws. Even though I have much respect towards judo, a fight does not end because of a perfectly executed throw like it does in judo competition. However a locking on a submission SHOULD end a real fight due to one of the opponent's limb being broken or the opponent being choked out.

So to sum it up, yes the BJJ points system is not perfect, but it does emphasize gaining dominant position with the ultimate goal of submitting the opponent.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by JaredExtreme

tournament BJJ is still a much more realistic test of self-defense capability than the other major MA such as karate and TKD which employ point striking or judo which emphasizes the throws.

You definately don't need to justify your with comparision your opinion of BJJ is good enough

Originally Posted by JaredExtreme

Even though I have much respect towards judo, a fight does not end because of a perfectly executed throw like it does in judo competition.

I defiantely would have to disagree with that point a Judo throw + concrete = lights out.

Now I am not comparing this to BJJ saying better or worse this is what I mean there is no need to compare.

[cboog]

Originally Posted by IPON

100% correct, you will loose point s and loose the match




Interesting point as this was the reason that Kano eliminated a lot of the grappling in Judo. And now we are seeing more standup in events like UFC. Just an observation

Yeah they need that PPV money, isn't it all about money