American Jiu Jitsu

[pstevens]

Is it safe to say that we're practicing American Jiu Jitsu now?... I mean the Brasilians took Japanese Jiu Jitsu, practiced it for less than a century and now it's Brasilian Jiu Jitsu. Sure, they may have tweaked it a bit, but the core techniques still exists between the two systems. A case can be made that techniques have been developing HERE as well.

Sport JJ in North America can go very far... Perhaps even exceeding Brasil very soon. It's not unbelievable, since MOST of the BJJ's Greats are all teaching from either Canada or the US. Americans, in general, have a very competitive nature and I think we'll aspire to beat the Brasilians in their own game... Regardless of how long that takes. Look at Muay Thai... At one point in time, they were unbeatable. However, this all changed when Thai camps began moving to other countries or accepting foreigners in Thailand. Now, we know all their training techniques.

As the center of global information and commerce, it's inevitable that we will become a force in JJ...

[gregimotis]

No.

The Gracies did not slightly adjust Japanese JJ, they instituted a 'sea change' in the system. Then they proved their new system with unbeatable fighters for years, and remain a force in MMA.
Furthermore, all competant BJJ instructors in the World trace their lineage directly to a Brazilian or a primary student of a Brazilian. That Americans have done well with BJJ does not make it 'American Ju-Jitsu' any more than Latin boxing champions make it 'Cuban boxing'. Greco-Roman wrestling is not 'American wrestling' and the marathon is not 'Kenyan long distance running'.

It seems to me if somebody invented something great and shared it with the world they should get to name it whatever they like, and the rest of us should have the respect to honor that name.

[JaredExtreme]

It should all be called "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" and classes should cost $150 a month.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by gregimotis

It seems to me if somebody invented something great and shared it with the world they should get to name it whatever they like, and the rest of us should have the respect to honor that name.

I understand your point, but it is somewhat in contradiction. The Gracies created very little if anything in there JJ, refined a gret deal .. yes.

So then the question is if it is refined in the US or Canada should we not use that name. It is already done with other JJ ryu "American Jujitsu". I personally do not like it. Like you say give respect where respect is due to name Brasilian JJ is arrogant becuase it is not the only style JJ studied in Brasil. However, I have no problem with it being called GJJ. I don't think we should nationalize the arts I hate seeing "AMERICAN Karate" again like thee is only one form of Karate in America

No flame just my 2 cents

[gregimotis]

Yes, the appropriate name is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, not Brazillian, I believe there were some family politics with the Machados which led to that change (I'm no expert).

None the less, the Gracies did more than take JJJ, get good at it and then re-name it. They changed the focus from throws/submissions to almost entirely grappling/submission. It was at least as great a change as JJJ to Aikido. Additionally, neither JJJ nor any variant thereof, nor for that matter any style in existence has so revolutionalized Martial arts since at least Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do.

American BJJ players are arguably as good as any in the world (with the exception of Brazil), that doesn't make BJJ ours. Nor does having the potential to be better than the Brazilians make it ours. Certainly being "The center of the world" or whatever the original poster said does not make BJJ ours.


The argument is specious at best.... arrogant is closer to it.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by gregimotis

The argument is specious at best.... arrogant is closer to it.

Arrogant? Arrogant is saying your style is better than everyone else, but then you go and learn other styles and add them to your own... Without give credit to the other styles.

Renzo and Royce have both admittingly stated that they went to great lengths to learn Muay Thai and boxing. Royce does boxing 3 times a week, according to reports. Yet, in interviews these guys don't give credit to the systems: Muay Thai or boxing. Instead they say it's part of Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

In one interview I read a while back, the interviewer said something like "I heard you train Muay Thai and boxing with Renzo to prepare for Sakaruba?" Royce answered, "It's kinda like that... But it's Gracie Jiu Jitsu."

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by gregimotis

The argument is specious at best.... arrogant is closer to it.

Arrogant? Arrogant is saying your style is better than everyone else, but then you go and learn other styles and add them to your own... Without give credit to the other styles.

Renzo and Royce have both admittingly stated that they went to great lengths to learn Muay Thai and boxing. Royce does boxing 3 times a week, according to reports. Yet, in interviews these guys don't give credit to the systems: Muay Thai or boxing. Instead they say it's part of Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

In one interview I read a while back, the interviewer said something like "I heard you train Muay Thai and boxing with Renzo to prepare for Sakaruba?" Royce answered, "It's kinda like that... But it's Gracie Jiu Jitsu."

This from the same guys who are knocking other arts all the time? I rest my case.

[gregimotis]

Originally Posted by pstevens

Is it safe to say that we're practicing American Jiu Jitsu now?... I mean the Brasilians took Japanese Jiu Jitsu, practiced it for less than a century and now it's Brasilian Jiu Jitsu. Sure, they may have tweaked it a bit, but the core techniques still exists between the two systems. A case can be made that techniques have been developing HERE as well.

Sport JJ in North America can go very far... Perhaps even exceeding Brasil very soon. It's not unbelievable, since MOST of the BJJ's Greats are all teaching from either Canada or the US. Americans, in general, have a very competitive nature and I think we'll aspire to beat the Brasilians in their own game... Regardless of how long that takes. Look at Muay Thai... At one point in time, they were unbeatable. However, this all changed when Thai camps began moving to other countries or accepting foreigners in Thailand. Now, we know all their training techniques.

As the center of global information and commerce, it's inevitable that we will become a force in JJ...

Your point (it seems) is that there should be something called 'American Jiu-Jitsu', which I disagree with, but if you can make an argument for it then fine.
The problem I have is your case is based on:

1)Many of the best instructors teach in N. America
The people you refer to are either Brazilians who moved North, or N. Americans who moved to Brazil and came back, or students of Brazilians (who moved North).


2)Americans might be better than Brazilians at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu someday

We might be better at a lot of things someday, that doesn't make us better at it now, nor does it mean we should rename it.


3) The United States is the center of the world economy, and therefore will soon be the center of JJ.

This is where the arrogant part comes in - Isn't there enough chest thumping going on in the world right now without some sort of martial arts manifest destiny BS? How about we appoint a 'committee for un-American martial arts' to re-name everything?


As to your last point -

That the Gracie family might be big headed about their art is irrelevant. They could be the biggest pack of jerks on the planet, but they still will have invented and codified Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu - And the United States still will have not have done so.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by gregimotis

Your point (it seems) is that there should be something called 'American Jiu-Jitsu', which I disagree with, but if you can make an argument for it then fine.

Actually, my point rests on ONE idea: If a style of Jiu Jitsu developed in Brasil can be called Brasilian Jiu Jitsu, than a style of Jiu Jitsu developing in the United States can be called American Jiu Jitsu.

This logic is supported by the fact that:

1) People tend to generalize all styles of Jiu Jitsu, except BJJ, into one category. When in fact, NO Jiu Jitsu Ryu is the same. Each has its own philosophy, strategy, etc... Therefore, BJJ is simply another “style” of Jiu Jitsu which developed in Brasil.

2) Jiu Jitsu has been developing in the United States and is comparably different from the original Gracie Jiu Jitsu taught in Rio. For example, many US gyms teach combat grappling which uses BJJ, wrestling and judo, among other submissions wrestling techniques. The sprawl, double-leg, among other things don’t exist in traditional BJJ gyms.

3) Therefore, the FACT that new concepts, additions and techniques are being developed everyday for competition in the United States, merits a good case for AJJ... This is NOT Brasil, afterall.

If we don’t follow this logic, a Brasilian learns Japanese Jiu Jitsu and tweaks it according to his climate and conditions and calls it BJJ, but an American who learns BJJ and tweaks it according to his climate and conditions must still call it BJJ... That’s not logical.

[cakegirl]

Originally Posted by pstevens

For example, many US gyms teach combat grappling which uses BJJ, wrestling and judo, among other submissions wrestling techniques...
...an American who learns BJJ and tweaks it according to his climate and conditions must still call it BJJ... That’s not logical.

It seems to me that an American who learns BJJ and tweaks it can call it "combat grappling", which is what you said above.

BJJ is a sport, with BJJ rules. If you went into a BJJ competition and played by karate rules, you'd be kicked out. That's where the formality of the name is important.

If you change the rules, it's not BJJ. Then it becomes submission grappling, or combat grappling, or whatever else you want to call it.

Cakegirl

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by pstevens

Renzo and Royce have both admittingly stated that they went to great lengths to learn Muay Thai and boxing. Royce does boxing 3 times a week, according to reports. Yet, in interviews these guys don't give credit to the systems: Muay Thai or boxing. Instead they say it's part of Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

Royce also dabbles in Hapkido. It can be found on an earlier thread. He appears to be able to kick higher and harder. He's throwing kick combinations on the way in...

[GrdStorm]

" It was at least as great a change as JJJ to Aikido"

LoL

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a progressive art, therefore the BJJ practiced now is very different from 20-30 years ago. Practioners add Sambo, Greco, Freestyle, Judo, Catch techniques to their BJJ game. If you want to call it American Jiu Jitsu, thats fine, however I hope you don't say it infront of Ryan Gracie, he'll rape your asshole

Oh and Renzo definitely gives credit to Muay Thai. Hes got a Muay Thai coach teaching MUAY THAI class 3x a week. Trust me, I'm there a lot.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by GrdStorm

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a progressive art, therefore the BJJ practiced now is very different from 20-30 years ago. Practioners add Sambo, Greco, Freestyle, Judo, Catch techniques to their BJJ game. If you want to call it American Jiu Jitsu, thats fine, however I hope you don't say it infront of Ryan Gracie, he'll rape your asshole

A progressive art? That's the lamest excuse for your position... I suppose then that if one learns JJJ, karate, Muay Thai, boxing, sambo, etc... then call it JJJ, it's all fine and dandy... Why do we even have different styles? That's called Mixed Martial Arts... In case you haven't heard.

Let me spell it out for you... If BJJ can incorporate any art and say it's still BJJ, then karate can incorporate BJJ and say it's still karate. This is hardly true.

Basically, you've just supported my idea that new concepts, techniques are being improved upon so this idea of style is relative to location. BJJ is discipline based on certain core techniques and philosophy. Simply adding other styles like Muay Thai, Sambo doesn't make them a part of BJJ. Rather, you're simply learning different MMA techniques.

Oh, and I wouldn't worry too much about Ryan Gracie... I know a thing or two about law. I could debate with him regarding this matter, but if he wanted to get physical, that's his option since he'll be the one behind bars paying for my retirement.