Anaylasis of old beating BJJ article

[CKD]

I was looking through some old blackbelt magazines and I couldn't help but notice the many beating BJJ articles. I decided to write my thoughts here.
I noticed that many of the techniques would simply not work. They got better as the years went by but very, very few have mentioned the most obvious and so far the only way BJJ has been defeated is by simply becoming very good at BJJ yourself. There was one in which it showed how many different traditional arts would use there techniques to destroy BJJ. It was filled with things such as get down low and do a reverse punch as he gets low or elbow the back of the head as he goes for a double leg. Basically try to knock him out before he gets close too you. As seen by the first UFCs that does not work to well. There was an later article that basically pretty much when ever the person grabbed on to him then he would try to push him away and punch. Most articles suggessted either simply don't let him take you down or bite and eye gouge out of it. Right try eye gouging person when he is mouneted and throwing punches and won't be pretty. He will either just be able to punch your face more or he will transition into and armbar. The only thing you will be biting in that situation is his fist. Other articles tried to claim there style had ground fighting or better groundfighting than Jiu-jitsu. For example there was an article claiming that hapkido groundfighting was much better than Jiu-jitsu and an article saying that tae kwon dos takedowns were better Others didn't claim they were better but claimed they had enouph to neutralize it. Such as the Shotokan groundfighting article. I didn't want to break it to them but the way they were striking from the ground was hazardous and they were not doing the armbar right. There was also a kung fu groundfighting article in that the person was trying to do an armbar by placing his feet on the side of his body and just pulling! Another article was an comparison of Gracie jiu-jitsu and kajukenbo. Reylson Gracie in the article dispelled myths about GJJ such as it has no striking or weapon defense and then went to explain its theories. When mentioning multiple opponents he simply said he prepared his students the best he could for the occassion but said they had no garunteed defense while the kajukenbo instructor pretended he did. What was really funny about the article was the techniques section. It showed their arts defense against a punch and a knife attack. Both of the kajukenbos defenses were fancy step away trap the hand and a do a few fancy movements that required a non-resisting partner and the GJJ defenses were simple and effective. I hate too see the Kajukenbos answer for two opponents if the techniques can not work against one. I then researched each arts defense against multiple opponents and found Reylson's to be the most effective. I have actually have used a few of them in my security jobs without knowing it! Another interesting article was by Emin Boztepe in which he said his style would beat BJJ by knocking them out before they could get close Hmmm that sounds what the people fighting Royce said. Boztepe already has backed out of a challenge he made to Royce so I guess we know how confident he is it will work. Later I noticed the articles got better. One suggested the sprawl as a remedy but that will only work on double legs and doesn't solve takedowns from the clinch. Besides that you will probaly end up on the ground eventually even if you have a good sprawl. Eventually these articles stopped probaly because the remedy for beating BJJ was found, learning a lot of bjj. Thats what every pro mma fighter does. Well thats my anaylasis. Peace out and goodnight.

[Nick]

What's the point of this post? Grappling can beat striking, striking can beat grappling. That's all there is to it.

Later...

[CKD]

There was really no point. I just thought it was interesting to look at the changes of how the strategies of beating a bjj stylist evolved.

[GrdStorm]

Those articles are a pathetic attempt by Traditional Martial Artists to put some meaning to the years of useless training they have done. I mean how would you feel if you've been training in Joe Schmoe Kwon Do Jitsu for 5-10 years, train hard, everyday then UFC and Royce Gracie comes along and beats the crap out of everyone. Now everyone in the world is going "GJJ is undefeatable, especially against that Joe Schmoe Kwon Do Jitsu stuff!" It's like saying that all your years for your PhD went down the drain because there is a new and better curriculum that has nothing to do with your PhD. These people went as far as to try to formulate strategies from their useless TMA's to combat grappling instead of accepting it and integrating it into their own style.

Nowadays too many people are aware because BJJ and MMA are blowing up. The Guardians of the TMA order have crawled back into their Black Belt Magazine.

[Nick]

The main problem is the TMA don't train very hard.

Mas Oyama knocked out most people he fought with one punch, despite the fact that he was doing Karate, a supposedly poor style.

Later...

[GrdStorm]

Karate is not neccessarily a poor style, Kyokushin Karate is some tough ass shit and they recently beat top tier K-1 guys in a Kyokoshin vs. K-1 event. Those guys beat the piss out of each other and do some sick body conditioning and body hardening. Their art when put in a ring mainly looks like Kickboxing.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by CKD

There was really no point. I just thought it was interesting to look at the changes of how the strategies of beating a bjj stylist evolved.

I too saw an old "How to beat BJJ" article. You have to question some of the techniques that they recommend. 5 prominent TMA stylists were in the article: TKD's GM He Il Cho, Sifu Randy Williams (wingchun), Duane Ludwig - I think it was him (Muay Thai), Master Larry Tatum (Kenpo), Funakoshi (shotokan karate)

Each of these martial artists are extremely talented in their arts, there's no doubt about that - but I think the article should have been renamed "How to beat crude takedown attempts from inexperienced grapplers" because as we have seen, legitimate 10th degree master instructors last about 3 minutes against Gracie Jujitsu or experienced grapplers.

So the article shows the random grappler guy squaring off against the TMA master at a distance of about 3 feet. The grappler lowers his center, bends at the knees, keeps his head centered above his feet and attempts to close - both fighters are now about 1.5 feet apart:

He Il Cho - Steps back and throws an axe kick to the guys collar, then finishes with a spinning back kick.

Randy Williams - Intercepts the grapplers extended arms, throws a series of chain punches at the grapplers head, traps his hands and throws elbows and a headbutt.

Ludwig - Attempts a sprawl and pulls the fight into a stand up clinch, driving knees into the grapplers body and head, pushes the grappler back and launches a low/high thai kicks

I forget what the other guys did.

Royce said something very interessting after his matches against Pat Smith (K-1) and Jason Delucia (5-animal kung-fu); he said both guys have good stand-up fighting but have to study more jj before they can match him on the ground...

[CKD]

I don't think most of those moves would work even against a inexperinced BJJer and some not even a an average joe. I think they no those techniques wouldn't work. I believe they were invited to participate in the UFC after the article but all turned down. BJJ stylists wrote better articles on how to take a striker to the ground such as this one http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives...ie/gracie.html than the strikers wrote on how to beat bjj. So far in mma the only way a people beat bjj is by learning it. Its said how no-one ever thought of it but people want to believe there style can beat bjj without becoming a bjj practcioner. What was more pathetic was the arts saying they had better groundfighting like hapkido http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives...d/hapkido.html Or this article. The person tries to punch the person mounted on him! http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/featurecontent/view.asp?article=189&search=/featurecontent/searchResults.asp-!!-search=shotokan-!-command=OR-!-SUBMIT=Search Genius way to get killed. I saw something simialr with gym wagners tapes in which he was trying to do a drill where he punches the person mounted on him then tries to eye gouge him. Its lethal in the fact that if you those techniques you open up your face to be punched!

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by CKD

What was more pathetic was the arts saying they had better groundfighting like hapkido http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives...d/hapkido.html Or this article. The person tries to punch the person mounted on him!

Yeah, that's quite pathetic. Makes you wonder if some of these instructors have actually grappled with BJJ stylists or grapplers at all.

[CKD]

Makes me wonder if they actually grapple or if they just made those techniques for publicity. The shotokan karate article i found the most horrible though. Cut and paste the link for all of those who haven't seen it.

[Hermosa]

I have to agree here..Relson Gracie said it, the only art that can beat BJJ is BJJ.

I have been a solid BJJ guy for about 6 years now but my original start was in JKD. The actual way that I got started in BJJ was by getting taken down and submitted repeatedly by two different Royce bluebelts. I just happened to be teaching a class on how if you occupy centerline and perform the Straight Blast correctly you'll never get taken down...hmm

Thank god that happened to me looking back on it. About 2 weeks after that incident I packed up and move out to study BJJ and never looked back.

Its GREAT STUFF!

[JaredExtreme]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

Ludwig - Attempts a sprawl and pulls the fight into a stand up clinch, driving knees into the grapplers body and head, pushes the grappler back and launches a low/high thai kicks

LOL His plan sure didn't work against Penn in the K-1 Romanex. Penn easily took him down about 5 seconds into the match.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by Hermosa

I have to agree here..Relson Gracie said it, the only art that can beat BJJ is BJJ

I wouldn't go that far, I understand your point. BJJ has been beaten by non BJJ using non BJJ techniques.

I definately agree that these type of article come out to save face with the respective art, which is pathetic!! The problem is that these "masters" are not testing (and I am not suggesting challenge matches) these theories. They are essentially armchair theories thinking about kicks or strikes against somone shooting, in slow motion in thier heads when reality is much different. As a result it can get there students seriously hurt against a grappler. The issue of ground work is interesting, regardless of what Scott Shaw suggests, it really is opposite to the philosophy of HKD. Also, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu incorporates very little newaza as most would see in Judo or BJJ so I am not sure where he gets this Idea. And even if it did exist it could not be expected to be on teh same level as Judo or BJJ.

Tom Yum...was this your experience in HKD to have ground fighting, just curious?

[CKD]

When has bjj been beaten by non-bjj techniques? Everyone in mma does jiu-jitsu. Well the defenses shown were pathetic.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by IPON

Tom Yum...was this your experience in HKD to have ground fighting, just curious?

The amount of ground fighting in HKD I learned was a fraction of what most BJJ stylists accquire in 6 months training, granted the emphasis of HKD is not on ground fighting. There was no formal emphasis on ground mobility, rather an emphasis on applying HKD principles on the ground.

We tried to get finishing holds (subs) ASAP. Ex. if you try to throw or sweep, but get pulled down or fall for whatever reason, you would use whatever relative position you land and shoot for finishing holds. The problem I find with this is that it sometimes favors strength or speed over technique.

There were a series of pins we learned as well, using your knees and elbows that were considered more friendly but still hurt pretty bad. Other techniques we used were more or less go with the flow - if you were being pulled, you push and the technique opens up and vice versa.

In a hold or in a submission, we tried to strike the nearest vital point and reverse the hold. The problem with that kind of training is that you can't actually strike your partners vitals full contact and you wouldn't want to, because he's your classmate. You simulate it or hit it lightly; your partner compliantly loosens his grip then you reverse the hold. You don't know 100% if its going to work, allthough you might inflict some pain in a real situation it goes untested...

IMO this only works when a grappler is attempting a submission that isn't completely locked in amidst a struggle, because you have time as an element and can land vital strikes. However, if someone gets superior position on you (the mount), gets your back with his hooks set in tight or has you against a wall in the cross body position HKD techniques are not going to work because you have inferior striking mobility and are at the mercy of the grappler.

I trained in HKD for 5 years (not currently training) wheras Scott Shaw has been involved in the art for maybe 15 more years than I so he's certainly more of an expert. However, I've also trained in BJJ and got humbled by its effectiveness