Adapting to BJJ movement styles from Wrestling

[roku]

I was hoping to get opinions from those who've at least dabbled in both on a few things that I've noticed.

1. In wrestling, it seems that the emphasis on point or pin goals teaches poor positioning skills. IOW, one of the things I sense will be a constantly improving process is understanding the strength and weakness of your true martial positioning and your strategy for improving it. I've seen some good drills for counter/reversal flows that are similar to things we did in wrestling. I know Mario Sperry has his 4 positions of control flow theory that he likes from the top, but understanding and feeling great positioning seems like a deep subject to me right now. Do any BJJ artists out there have a particular approach to positioning strategies, whether from top or otherwise?

2. Another thing that I still need to get more used to is gi vs no gi. In wrestling, we had no gi, and when I'm rolling, people who are good seem very "sticky" with their controlling arms. It's odd because moves that would work fine in wrestling (arm drags, slips, etc.) can be unexpectedly (at least for me) stopped with someone stuck more tightly than expected. Does anyone have a general approach to using stickiness to your advantage or defeating it that they have found works well?

3. Lastly, our coach used to talk us through "shadow wrestling" drills, primarily focused on takedowns, sprawls, sitout counters, etc., things you can flow through without a partner, unlike knee on belly for example (IMO). The best wrestlers on the team practiced this way regularly. I think for visualizing and working on flow, these were useful. We had quite a few undefeated wrestlers and took 8 of the 1st place positions in state during my senior year (no, not me), so generally his training methods seemed to work pretty well. Is anyone aware of BJJ drills that can be worked this way or even the use of this kind of training in BJJ?

Something potentially related is that I have had close to 5 years of Aikido practice, and find it useful, but aside from concepts like working on relaxed fluid movement, understanding joint locking, figure 4 w/arms, and some striking/atemi strategies with similar purpose to Vale Tudo (drawing defense), Aikido feels very much like it's in a different zone than BJJ. It's also not focused on wrestling or clinch style attacks. I am hoping to experiment using Aikido techniques with BJJ finishes, but I haven't had a chance to try that yet.

Any responses on these three questions or other differences noticed/advice to give in adapting wrestling to BJJ or Vale Tudo would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[pstevens]

roku,

Your basic high school or college wrestling program will have weakness pertaining to MMA, simply because the curriculum is not based on a "martial arts" mentality. The major weakness ofcourse is that there are no attacks from the bottom.

However, emphasis IS put on escaping and getting to a better position. Also on the plus side of wreslting, is that while learning to pin people, you learn to maintain positional control, especially on top. Often times in BJJ, beginners go for the submission before acquiring the correct position, which is a bad habit. In wrestling, you have to develop patience and the ability to maintain positional control to get the pin.

I wouldn't necessarily approach BJJ using wrestling moves or philosophy right away... That can take away from your understanding of BJJ. First, you should just absorb what is taught in BJJ. Instead, apply the sensitivity of motion and momentum you experienced in wrestling. Understanding when, where and how he intends to move is pivotal in maintaining control.

There's quite a difference between no gi, gi and NHB. Gi training is seen as an introductory into the other two. Things are slower and you have the luxury of holding on to lapels, collars and sleeves, which makes submissions a little easier. No gi is faster and you have less control of arms and limbs, because of the conditions: sweat, less weight, less obtrusion from clothing, etc... Then you have NHB, which seems light years from gi training.

NHB requires knowledge of all three phases of combat: standing, clinch and ground. There are so many variables, that you're better off learning the basics of each while improving your strengths. I've only had 3 NHB/MMA style fights, so my experience is anything but great. This is just a word of advice that wrestling can help develop some fundamentals in maintaining control.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pstevens

roku,

Your basic high school or college wrestling program will have weakness pertaining to MMA, simply because the curriculum is not based on a "martial arts" mentality. The major weakness ofcourse is that there are no attacks from the bottom.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Certainly if you lay on your back in a guard, you will lose, but I would consider escapes and reversals, if done properly, to be in the category of 'attacks' from the bottom in that they can potentially damage your oponent and/or end the contest.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by jubaji

I'm not sure I agree with this. Certainly if you lay on your back in a guard, you will lose, but I would consider escapes and reversals, if done properly, to be in the category of 'attacks' from the bottom in that they can potentially damage your oponent and/or end the contest.

No shiet sherlock... That's why I said that wrestling DOES emphasize escapes and getting to a better position. By attacking, I mean appyling holds or offensive manuevers: half-nelson, headlock, etc... The basic reaction to a pin is to bridge immediately, because 2 seconds is all it takes to end the match. That doesn't leave much room for working the bottom, unless you're in a table, or turtle position.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pstevens

No shiet sherlock... .

Don't get too excited. You might go out and get beat up again if you let your emotions get the better of you.

[CKD]

Wrestlers have some good habits. They can hold a top position well, and have a good base. The side mount is probaly the most used in wrestling. Lack of some positions like the guard, little use of mount are weaknesses. Probaly the best thing about wrestlers is there phenomomenal takedowns.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by jubaji

Don't get too excited. You might go out and get beat up again if you let your emotions get the better of you.

Oh, I'm estatic! Your mom is calling again!!!

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pstevens

Oh, I'm estatic! !!!

Could you tell us more about your 'Laydowninthestreetandcryasyouarepummeled-fu'? It sounds very effective!

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by jubaji

Could you tell us more about your 'Laydowninthestreetandcryasyouarepummeled-fu'? It sounds very effective!

Oh yeah... As I laid there waiting for your mom, your head popped out.. That's enough to scare anyone...

[roku]

Originally Posted by pstevens

I wouldn't necessarily approach BJJ using wrestling moves or philosophy right away... That can take away from your understanding of BJJ. First, you should just absorb what is taught in BJJ. Instead, apply the sensitivity of motion and momentum you experienced in wrestling. Understanding when, where and how he intends to move is pivotal in maintaining control.

Sounds like good advice. I am trying to do that, even to the extent of working to unlearn things in wrestling, like positions that have stability but expose the back, such as all 4's base on bottom (turtle-like) or sit-out escapes. That stuff seems relatively easy to adjust, but it's hard to roll and forget about everything except the new stuff. Instead, I've decided to have learning, not tapping someone as a priority 1 goal much of the time, with tapping still important, but secondary.

NHB requires knowledge of all three phases of combat: standing, clinch and ground. There are so many variables, that you're better off learning the basics of each while improving your strengths. I've only had 3 NHB/MMA style fights, so my experience is anything but great. This is just a word of advice that wrestling can help develop some fundamentals in maintaining control.

Thanks for the viewpoint, it makes sense, and I appreciate it.

On the gi issue, a number of people have said that the gi acts somewhat as training wheels. Part of my problem is that when people get advanced and use the gi, it seems to go beyond training wheels to something you have to develop some expertise in, independent of your abilities without one. Also, my speed in wresting was always a plus for me, which seems a little harder to leverage with a gi. I also wonder if there are techniques that it renders less effective that would, in fact, work quite well in a no-gi situation.

Have you found that the gi really helped early on in developing your no-gi game, or are there things you'd do differently in restrospect to improve now that you've tried NHB competition?

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pstevens

I said that wrestling DOES emphasize escapes and getting to a better position.

That's what you need. Maybe then you wouldn't be planted on the street and beat like a dog quite so often.


Thanks for sharing that story, by the way.

[roku]

Originally Posted by jubaji

I'm not sure I agree with this. Certainly if you lay on your back in a guard, you will lose, but I would consider escapes and reversals, if done properly, to be in the category of 'attacks' from the bottom in that they can potentially damage your oponent and/or end the contest.

The main thing I've felt was lacking in my wrestling experience was that I didn't develop a strong guard or defense to the guard, and I didn't have to worry about my opponents chokes, ankle locks, or most arm locks. Other people's wrestling experience may have been different. Interestingly, the banana split, guillotine, and other painful wrestling moves seem applicable, generally as long as they can also result in a shoulder pin.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by roku

The main thing I've felt was lacking in my wrestling experience was that I didn't develop a strong guard or defense to the guard, and I didn't have to worry about my opponents chokes, ankle locks, or most arm locks.

Yeah, that's true.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by CKD

Wrestlers have some good habits. They can hold a top position well, and have a good base. The side mount is probaly the most used in wrestling. Lack of some positions like the guard, little use of mount are weaknesses. Probaly the best thing about wrestlers is there phenomomenal takedowns.

Yeah if wrestler used the guard it would be a defensive pin. Now the mount I have used, but it was a mount with underhookstransitioning into a double grapevine. Great for a pin, but not comparable to BJJ in SD or NHB. I think the key is that wrestling is a pure sport that can be easily adjusted for fighhting. And I agree wrestlers have great balance I think it is very dificult to takedown.

[roku]

Originally Posted by IPON

Yeah if wrestler used the guard it would be a defensive pin. Now the mount I have used, but it was a mount with underhookstransitioning into a double grapevine. Great for a pin, but not comparable to BJJ in SD or NHB. I think the key is that wrestling is a pure sport that can be easily adjusted for fighhting. And I agree wrestlers have great balance I think it is very dificult to takedown.

That move/transition makes sense. I've actually used a grapevine for control from the top in BJJ rolling. My partner in that case was bigger than me, but not extremely experienced. It did seem useful for keeping control. As I understand it, the same technique is sometimes used in BJJ to tradeoff better control in mount for mobility.

Thanks.