Weak Counterpart Position.

[Tant01]

This is an old Silat trick to make your adversary think you pose no threat. It's more than a position (like the gaurd), it's a concept of tricking your opponent into thinking he has the superior position, untill you decide the proper time to secure your victory. It's the ultimate feint! A way to draw in the predator so your weapons are most effective. A simple thing like a kind of hesitation, a little limp or deliberate slowness to the things you do. So it's more than a concept too, it's a way to implant a false sense of confidence and a technique of presenting misinformation to feed the ego of the enemy. A seed has been planted and if it bears friut we'll see just how far the concept crosses over from Silat to the MMA Boards! How effective it can be at preserving anything from space and time to information itself.

[bvermillion]

I think this theory is used in a variety of competitions. I was taught that very early on in boxing. Never go full speed. But I sorta think that was more of a preserving energy thing then anything. But even so it still makes your opponent think you are less then you are sometimes.

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Tant01

This is an old Silat trick to make your adversary think you pose no threat. It's more than a position (like the gaurd), it's a concept of tricking your opponent into thinking he has the superior position, untill you decide the proper time to secure your victory. It's the ultimate feint!

The only thing I can relate to would be pulling your opponent in a guard position and set up your moves from there by letting him think he has the advantage because he is on top.
However, Bjj has the double attack principle: attack with two targets at the same time: for exemple you attack with a choke and an arm bar. Go for the choke first, if he defend by using his arm..use it against him and pull an arm bar on him. Which ever the opponent is defending first...continue with the other. because the neck is so close the arms ..both 'limbs' can be targeted at the same time...like a chess game. going for the king but aiming at the queen and vice versa.
When you become good at it, it when you can do both at the same time.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by wardancer

The only thing I can relate to would be pulling your opponent in a guard position and set up your moves from there by letting him think he has the advantage because he is on top.
However, Bjj has the double attack principle: attack with two targets at the same time: for exemple you attack with a choke and an arm bar. Go for the choke first, if he defend by using his arm..use it against him and pull an arm bar on him. Which ever the opponent is defending first...continue with the other. because the neck is so close the arms ..both 'limbs' can be targeted at the same time...like a chess game. going for the king but aiming at the queen and vice versa.
When you become good at it, it when you can do both at the same time.

The "double attack principle" is not unique to BJJ. The first action being a simple direct attack, should it draw a counter becomes a feint opening the alternate target to attack. Fencing comes to mind, thrust low to draw the parry, disengage, thrust high... If you don't get the parry, stab his knee...In Judo the first technique is usually a setup for the intended (real) technique.


"There are many possible combinations and many variations in their application (in some cases the initial attack is merely a feint) but the principle remains the same, i.e. to utilize the opponent's reaction to one attack to...leave him vulnerable to attack by another technique."

--Teizo Kawamura, Judo Combination Techniques

I once watched a BJJ stylist, tall guy, throw a lame slow high round kick toward his opponent's head. The first time the guy missed it but the second time he caught it on his shoulder and went for the takedown. Fell right into a perfect Sankaku jime. That's the Judo name for your Triangle lock with the legs in a figure four around his neck and one arm.

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Tant01

The "double attack principle" is not unique to BJJ. The first action being a simple direct attack, should it draw a counter becomes a feint opening the alternate target to attack. Fencing comes to mind, thrust low to draw the parry, disengage, thrust high... If you don't get the parry, stab his knee...In Judo the first technique is usually a setup for the intended (real) technique.


"There are many possible combinations and many variations in their application (in some cases the initial attack is merely a feint) but the principle remains the same, i.e. to utilize the opponent's reaction to one attack to...leave him vulnerable to attack by another technique."

--Teizo Kawamura, Judo Combination Techniques

I once watched a BJJ stylist, tall guy, throw a lame slow high round kick toward his opponent's head. The first time the guy missed it but the second time he caught it on his shoulder and went for the takedown. Fell right into a perfect Sankaku jime. That's the Judo name for your Triangle lock with the legs in a figure four around his neck and one arm.

No,
The double attack principle is not only to feint and attempt a variation but do both attack at the same time if you have enough skills.
You cannot do that in fencing/striking because your 'sword'/strikes cannot be at the two 'targets'/places/limbs at the same time, unlike BJJ where you can attempt 1 choke and an arm barm at the same time.
It is difficult and that why having the opportunity to switch/concentrate on one technique might be the better.
But both atttack can done together: the BJJ double attack is not a feint.
One quick and simple example would attempting a triangle choke and a arm barm at the same time. But there is better example like a a mount with a choke and a arm barm moving to a reverse side control.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by wardancer

No,
The double attack principle is not only to feint and attempt a variation but do both attack at the same time if you have enough skills.
.... both atttack can done together: the BJJ double attack is not a feint.
One quick and simple example would attempting a triangle choke and a arm barm at the same time...

I see double attack principle in other things, pinning your opponent to attack his mobility while you also choke or lock or strike... Armdrag (armbar) takedown is a throw and a lock at the same time. Yet is not the weak counterpart position. Lets say you give up the triangle choke/armbar in favor of a kneebar (as your opponent is picking you up to slam your head down) you give up the superior position making your opponent think he has succeeded in defeating your technique only to trap him in another...

Just as planned...

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Tant01

I see double attack principle in other things, pinning your opponent to attack his mobility while you also choke or lock or strike... Armdrag (armbar) takedown is a throw and a lock at the same time. Yet is not the weak counterpart position. Lets say you give up the triangle choke/armbar in favor of a kneebar (as your opponent is picking you up to slam your head down) you give up the superior position making your opponent think he has succeeded in defeating your technique only to trap him in another...

Just as planned...

NO, you are not fully understanding my point as yet,
In order to get my opponent int the triangle/arm bar position,
I am likely to be at the bottom (on the guard) from the start, therefore he could slam me anytime in a NHB environment/rules.
I cannot do a knee bar from being in such position.
However, it is not the point.
I do not pin your opponent as a first attack.
I pin him but I still can do the double attack moves.
Bjj position philosophy/strategy is not an attack just a better position to set your attacks.
My point is that in BJJ, I can atttack 2 ways at the same time and still be in the very difficult position (the guard) at the same time and pull some double attack unlike striking MA.
Unlike any faking/feint from any striking moves/theory you started this thread with.
Name me a striking techniques that can match the BJJ double attacks move?

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Tant01

I see double attack principle in other things, pinning your opponent to attack his mobility while you also choke or lock or strike...) you give up the superior position making your opponent think he has succeeded in defeating your technique only to trap him in another...

Just as planned...

That is the problem that I am having with the tradional and stand up MA dudes that do not do BJJ or MMA.
As a rule/experience, in a fight you do WANT to PLAN your position, however it just happens in a fight.
Moving to a better position is a must but is not considered to be an attack.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by wardancer

NO, you are not fully understanding my point as yet,
...My point is that in BJJ, I can atttack 2 ways at the same time and still be in the very difficult position (the guard) at the same time and pull some double attack unlike striking MA.
Unlike any faking/feint from any striking moves/theory you started this thread with.
Name me a striking techniques that can match the BJJ double attacks move?

BJJ double attacks are combination attacks weather one follows, precedes or is exicuted simultaneously. Your triangle-armbar is a great example of a combination attack. What's not to understand? JKD has "five ways" of attack, you think they can't be deployed in simultaneous combinations?

The weak counterpart position is less about an actual "move" or "position" as it is about giving your opponent false confidence. "feeding him" as it were. Your "gaurd" position is (in my view) an attack, we call it a torso scissors, same thing as closed gaurd, yes? You must realize that breathing can be made very difficult for the person in this (closed) gaurd position?

Tell me more about BJJ double attacks, perhaps a few more cool examples?

Thanks!

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Tant01

BJJ double attacks are combination attacks weather one follows, precedes or is exicuted simultaneously. Your triangle-armbar is a great example of a combination attack. What's not to understand? JKD has "five ways" of attack, you think they can't be deployed in simultaneous combinations?

The weak counterpart position is less about an actual "move" or "position" as it is about giving your opponent false confidence. "feeding him" as it were. Your "gaurd" position is (in my view) an attack, we call it a torso scissors, same thing as closed gaurd, yes? You must realize that breathing can be made very difficult for the person in this (closed) gaurd position?

Tell me more about BJJ double attacks, perhaps a few more cool examples?

Thanks!

Hi tan01,
sorry about the delay, being busy at work!
Your thread started to my understanding as a 'feint' JKD philosophy move.
I tried to explain my input the best I could.

Now, the problem you are having is your lack of 'grappling' experience.
If a 'BJJ' guard (open or closed) is a 'feeding him' as it were, you are wrong.
Like I said in a fight, it's just happen, you are at the buttom or the top, it just happens. Position is a feint. We (BJJ) train with such ways.
I am not aware about the "five ways'" of attack of JKD.
But I am pretty sure in JKD or any striking MA, you cannot attack 2 differents places at the same time like BJJ exemple I gave in previous posts in this threads.

exemples, yes there is plenty is BJJ.
Put the guy on the mount. punch him to the face (if you do not like punching than just put your elbow across his throat, he will protect his face area, then twist his defending arm around his head and neck, in order to twist his body up side down very hard to explain unless shown), once on his back pull his arm and do a reverse arm bar and a choke at the same time (make sure ou sink your hooks in to remain balance and control! to make sure you can even go for a spinal lock rather than a choke.
Cheers

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by wardancer

Hi tan01,
sorry about the delay, being busy at work!
Your thread started to my understanding as a 'feint' JKD philosophy move.
I tried to explain my input the best I could.

Now, the problem you are having is your lack of 'grappling' experience.
If a 'BJJ' guard (open or closed) is a 'feeding him' as it were, you are wrong.
Like I said in a fight, it's just happen, you are at the buttom or the top, it just happens. Position is a feint. We (BJJ) train with such ways.
I am not aware about the "five ways'" of attack of JKD.
But I am pretty sure in JKD or any striking MA, you cannot attack 2 differents places at the same time like BJJ exemple I gave in previous posts in this threads.

....Cheers

Hey, Wardancer...
Empty your mind, my problem is effectivly expressing the concept. A silat technique of deception. Your gaurd position on the bottom gives your "attacker" the sense of superior position? Yes? Is it a false sense of domination that he gets from being there? does it "feed" his ego? yes. I think. You have many escapes or submissions from the gaurd position... You post that "position is a feint" and this is (fundamentally) a similar concept i'm talking about. Now Jiu-Jitsu or MMA guys know that they can be submitted by the guy on the bottom, even attempting to escape a closed gaurd can land them in a simple armbar... In my limited experience most bully types or criminals aren't MAists or pro MMA fighters...But they do like to feel dominant. You could think of the bottom or gaurd position in the "feminine" gender, NO offence intended!! (a weak counterpart position. See?) It's almost simple enough to feel. Primal?
Lets take another set up for your triangle-armbar? I mention a MMA fight where a BJJ based player (fighter) throws an unlikely high round kick to his opponent's head... this is his "weak counterpart position" It's the third round, you're tired and injured, you want to finish it or face loosing... The high round kick is bait. A feint to draw him in to a common counter... Also a simple direct attack (JKD?) as a good feint will be hard to tell from the real thing. The first kick caught him across the jaw as he came forward but not too hard. He catches the second high kick on his shoulder, traps it there and exicutes his takedown pushing forward... Only to fall right into a triangle choke/ armbar... just as planned. Fight over TAP TAP TAP! With his leg up on his opponent's shoulder he's already halfway there! Still in a weak counterpart position, off balanced, on one foot, easy to take down... A completely different physical position but the SAME conceptual "food". "Uh-ho, I'm in trouble and you know it". Not thinking it but expressing it by the way you move. In a sense telegraphing your intent (false intent) a feint of the mind... a physical feint and a devistating trap. Putting oneself into a temporarily precarious position to "give up" time, distance, or position. To make it seem like an error in judgment, tiredness or especially pain or vulnerability! Intentional slowness or telegraphing can all be used to your opponents detriment... as a weak counterpart position.
Later,


Ray

[Chilly Dog]

Originally Posted by wardancer

Hi tan01,
sorry about the delay, being busy at work!
Your thread started to my understanding as a 'feint' JKD philosophy move.
I tried to explain my input the best I could.

Now, the problem you are having is your lack of 'grappling' experience.
If a 'BJJ' guard (open or closed) is a 'feeding him' as it were, you are wrong.
Like I said in a fight, it's just happen, you are at the buttom or the top, it just happens. Position is a feint. We (BJJ) train with such ways.
I am not aware about the "five ways'" of attack of JKD.
But I am pretty sure in JKD or any striking MA, you cannot attack 2 differents places at the same time like BJJ exemple I gave in previous posts in this threads.

exemples, yes there is plenty is BJJ.
Put the guy on the mount. punch him to the face (if you do not like punching than just put your elbow across his throat, he will protect his face area, then twist his defending arm around his head and neck, in order to twist his body up side down very hard to explain unless shown), once on his back pull his arm and do a reverse arm bar and a choke at the same time (make sure ou sink your hooks in to remain balance and control! to make sure you can even go for a spinal lock rather than a choke.
Cheers

I've only been training in BJJ for six months, so I'm not very qualified to speak about that. However, I can say something about the "striking" arts, as I have trained in karate, Muy Thai and boxing for several years. I don't agree with your point that you cannot strike two places at once -- while they are not necessarily common, there are numerous examples to the contrary. Here are a few:

In a fair number of styles of both karate and kung fu, a block can be done more as a strike -- in other words to both defend and inflict damage. One technique we used to do that meets your test was to attack the arm executing an overhead punch while simultaneously striking to the face.

Furthermore, depending on position, someone who is at an advanced level in karate will often strike the face while sweeping the legs or taking the opponent to the ground, thereby attacking low and high at the same time.

In Muy Thai, we often set up a switch kick with a jab. While the two techniques don't land exactly together, the execution is begun at the same time, there again meeting your test.

I will say though, that the tendency in striking arts is to use combinations to set an opponent up, rather than striking two places at once. However, I don't see much difference in BJJ. In my training with experienced students, and observation of them training with each other, I've found it more common for one area or body part to be attacked. It seems that this often presents options to attack others depending upon what an opponent does. I don't see a lot of multiple area attacks being done.