we as martial artists

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Hermosa

Oh boy am I gonna get for writing this one..but this is one my those issues that really is personal for me so I can't help myself. I think emptyness is partially right, we are alone and misunderstood..but we deserve it. The Martial Arts claim to make people into calmer, more peaceful, better human beings..but I don't think they do that, at least not most of them. Most styles talk a good game..but really produce little sociopaths who thrive on violence while putting on a facade of peace and goodwill.

If the martial arts had more integrity, -dare I say it on a JKD based forum--,but if we embraced some more of the TRADITIONAL values and philosophies, If we led by example; showing that we really were better people, more compassionate, more tolerant..then perhaps we wouldn't feel so alienated.

Most martial artists have a LONG way to go!

Hermosa, I think its nice to know that what you are learning will work. This doesn't involve lurking around the street like some kind of sociopathic venus fly trap, rather testing what you know in a more controlled environment with a tad bit of realism.

I distinguished between martial arts, combat sports and reality based SD. True that some people want to learn a hobby that is rich in culture, self-discipline, commitment and respect. Some people want to test themselves physically and mentally. Yet others would like to increase their chances of survival if they are confronted.

Its true that some arts encompass all of these areas, but this thread has evolved into self-defense issues. I am willing to share any cultural aspects of martial arts if someone starts one of those threads; you can occasionally find me interpreting kanji or discussing more intangible topics - cultural differences, religion etc.

I'm a life-long student of MA and have the humility to admit I am allways a beginner compared to someone else. At the same time, I call it like I see it.

[gabbah]

Hermosa, I think the problem is general, not specific to those who practise martial arts. The behaviour you described is very common among young males. That's all.
Instinct takes over, and they need to prove to themselves and others that they are strong males. I see this everyday. A guy or a few guys walking down the street or into a room, chins high, scanning the area to see if there are any other strong males. If there are, they must be put into place. If there are none, maybe they make an example and bully a weak one.

When I was younger I was affected by that game, now I think it's the silliest thing on this earth.

Most ppl start doing sports (and martial arts) at a young age (14-19 or something), when this behaviour, or social game or whatever you want to call it, is still in effect so to speak. So I say it's not the martial art, it's an age/maturity issue.

[gabbah]

Very well put Mike.
This is exactly what I feel I'm getting out of my training (well, a part of it at least). I'm tired of having to be the smart person who has to talk myself out of "trouble", or concioulsy avoid eye contact and all the stuff you said - no need to repeat it.
I feel much better knowing I can fight, but I have no need of fighting. I feel better knowing that I don't have to look down anymore, and I see that I get respect from that - avoiding the fight, or me being bullied. I don't have to take crap from anyone. I just feel better, and I'm not afraid that talking to those cocky guys can lead to trouble anymore. And since they sense no fear in me, they don't want to bully...

However, I can't say I try to find conflict. At least not yet. Maybe that will come further down the road for me.. this is probably something I want to explore, how I will react and such.

[gabbah]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

What I mean by "seeking conflict" is that we all train in fighting methods, and what after all is a fight if not conflict? Whether you seek the event or not, you're seeking the way to participate in the event and see it through to your own conclusions. To do that, you're participating in a conflict-based activity, yes?

Sure, I just don't try to pick a fight on the street, if that is what you mean by seeking conflict.
However, if I would see someone seeking conflict with me, I would probably not back down now. Because I know that I will feel very bad later if i back down, and it will eat me inside for a long time. So now I have more tools to confront instead, and even if i get bruised, I will still feel better about myself.
So like you said, now I can enjoy life more. It really is that simple.

[Chilly Dog]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

To a certain degree.

The point he and others are getting at is that most traditional martial art schools do not train realisitcally for self-defense. This is strictly from my opinion and limited experience in the TMAs. Why?:

- Too many techniques, not enough focus
- Complex pre-arranged sequences.
- Compliant partners; ok as a beginer but not good at higher levels.
- Not enough conditioning.
- Some classes keep it so that the most out of shape person can survive, which keeps the more active participants where they are.

There are a few TMA systems which teach good & effective self-defense (kyokushin, silat, tu-kong, muay thai etc.) but out of all TMA systems out there, these are 1%.

I understand his point very well, and nothing you say is inconsistent with my point. The systems you describe teach "effective self-defense" primarily because their training methods develop it. As I said, most legitimate systems can be applied in the same way. I don't believe that the system is nearly as important as the way the student trains to apply it.

That said, I agree with both of you, but with the caveat that most martial artists (98.9% ), not systems, are ineffective.

[Hermosa]

Originally Posted by Mike Brewer

An addendum:

I posted my reply after reading only the initial post and the first reply. I just finished reading the rest, and felt like adding something, specifically in reference to Hermosa's observations.

First, I completely agree with the idea that values and morality should play a bigger role. I understand more than a lot of these folks will where your opinions come from, and even then, I have to agree with gabbah in that the "sociopath" behavior is more often than not, boys trying to prove that they're men. It was when I was a sociopath, and I'm sure it was for you too.

On the topic of talking a good game, you and I share some fundamental beliefs that I'd encourage you to revisit. One instance comes to mind:

The Dalai Lama was asked if it was possible to positively and compassionately express anger. His reply was "Yes, it is possible to have circumstances in which the basic motivation is compassionate, but the immediate catalyst or motivating factor was anger, which is a very strong force of mind." I interpret that to mean that we may begin something (like martial arts) out of anger (in my case, anger at the fact that I'd gotten my ass kicked by a third grader), and still watch that course of action become incredibly positive and compassionate. If I hadn't gotten my ass kicked by the third grader when I was six, woukd either of us be where we are today?

The four noble truths of Buddhism begin by stating that Life is Duca, or Suffering. The truths deal with recognizing, the origin of that suffering, the cessation of suffering, and finding the path, right? Now describe your life with that in mind.

What were the martial arts to you in the beginning?
What did they lead you to discover?
What have your efforts over the last five years been about?
Where has it led you?

Once you've thought about those, maybe you'll see that it's exactly the same thing. Martial arts are, ultimately, a path toward self-awareness if not self-fulfillment, aren't they? The awareness gained when a student first realizes that he has the control to change his circumstance is a powerful thing. Not one everyone will understand, but the beginnings of greatness nonetheless.

Right On!..Yes, obviously if I just had it out for martial arts and artists, I wouldn't even be here on this forum..and perhaps I should have made that clearer. The journey has been fantastic, and you're right, with out it neither of us would be where we are today. I guess that the clarity with which I can now view past events...leads me to rise up in protest of those things that now strike me as damaging or disfunctional. -Namely, the mistaken notions that might can make you right and peace can be achieved through superior firepower.

I am reminded of the song "Bandidos" by the Refreshments. ---"I've got the pistol, so I'll keep the Pesos..Yea, that seems fair!"

In response to some of the other posters..I agree that it's important to know that your stuff works. That's what's great about arts that deal in "Aliveness".--(to steal a term from Matt Thorton). They expose you to yourself. There you are naked against your performance. What an enlightening and beautiful experience. I believe that Self-Knowledge is a powerful catalyst for compassion.

[Ahoym8e]

Originally Posted by gabba

However, if I would see someone seeking conflict with me, I would probably not back down now. Because I know that I will feel very bad later if i back down, and it will eat me inside for a long time.

Meh... I would still try hard to talk my way out of it. I've worked too hard and amassed too many assets to lose it all to some lowlife POS who lost a fight to me... You just can't win a fight these days anymore. Even if you win, you're likely to lose...

^Hehe, I say that in the comfort of my office with the temper down at minimum. Hopefully I'd not forget all that when the temper reaches about 1000 Kelvin.

Regarding my personal philosophy towards MA, I think I may be a different animal altogether:

I train because it is good exercise. It encourages me to improve my fitness level (strength, cardio, flexibility, reflexes, etc.).

It encourages discipline in what I eat and drink (not because there’s a sensei telling me that it’s counter tradition to eat this or drink that, but because I am going to get iced at grappling next Tuesday if I spend all weekend guzzling beer and stuffing pizza down my gullet).

I like the camaraderie at the gym. I like tapping someone 50 pounds heavier (even if he taps me the rest of the night.) I like getting tapped by someone 30 lbs lighter, and then learning the submission.

I like the competition of pitting my tactical prowess, skill, patience, pain tolerance and physical strength against yours. I don’t really like getting punched in the head, but I like the message that sends:”Hey dumbass, keep your hands up.” Or: “can’t believe you didn’t see that coming.” Or: “hey cool, let me try that!”

All of the above keep me excited about training, watching fight tapes and instructionals, doing pushups and squats, crunches and jumping rope, stretching and focusing on healthy diet.

It’s kinda cool to have your co-workers know that you can twist them into a knot if you wanted to, but that’s just an aside

I have no use for fighting outside of my circle of acquaintances that enjoy fighting and will do it in a controlled setting. Anything outside that just leads to injury, fines, criminal records, the gnawing at your conscience after having killed, crippled or disfigured someone. Oh, and over-the-top retribution of course (some a-hole burning down your house because “his honor is insulted”).

Anyway, maybe I’m just weird…

[gabbah]

You make perfect sense to me. In fact I'm very much like you. That's why I said earlier that "it's a PART" of my motivation to train to not always having to shy away.
I train mainly because I love mastering technique, and improving all the time, and fast at that. I started training just to get some cardiotraining that was also fun. Little did I know I would become almost obsessed with it

Anyway, to clearify... I mean I don't have to back down, but still I can try to reason with the person, I will not attack first. But instead of reasoning in a way that clearly shows I'm submitting to his will, I'm reasoning in a way that show I don't fear him.

[Ahoym8e]

Originally Posted by Hermosa

...notions that might can make you right...

No, but might can get me my way (and I'm magnanimous and benevolent, of course )

Originally Posted by hermosa

...and peace can be achieved through superior firepower.

Hey that notion isn't really too mistaken... well, freedom aside...

[Uncle Corny]

sorry. meant to say 99.764% of all martial arts. i love tom yum, but really, you're way too optimistic about martial arts and their effectiveness.

[Ahoym8e]

Originally Posted by gabbah

Anyway, to clearify... I mean I don't have to back down, but still I can try to reason with the person, I will not attack first. But instead of reasoning in a way that clearly shows I'm submitting to his will, I'm reasoning in a way that show I don't fear him.

I know _exactly_ how you feel. It's disgusting to feel like you wimped out in the face of adversity.

But, you don't have to actively assert your superiority all the time either. I think maybe becoming good at "handling yourself" allows you to be more mellow in that sort of way as well.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

hmmm.... I never really had that problem. of course my mum and my sister keep telling me that they dont want me in any matches cos I might get hurt and so on, but they arent really serious. my friends dont really care, you get some people at parties etc who go "can you kill me in one hit? what if I do THIS!" although that is a VERY small amount, probably because when people think of muay thai they think of brutal elbows and knees.

[Hwa Rang]

I think you mean that 99% of the martial arts you've tried don't work for you Uncle Corny. There are over 1500 styles of martial arts but have you tried 99% of them? No. If 99% of them are useless then what the **** is the point in bothering with martial arts?

[EmptyneSs]

people all over the world benefit from martial arts everyday. to say they are 99% useless is bs.

[Uncle Corny]

Originally Posted by Hwa Rang

I think you mean that 99% of the martial arts you've tried don't work for you Uncle Corny. There are over 1500 styles of martial arts but have you tried 99% of them? No. If 99% of them are useless then what the **** is the point in bothering with martial arts?

you need to check yourself when you open your big mouth with me.