BJJ versus other styles?

[gabbah]

Hello everyone.
I often hear about bjj in UFC and pride fc.
So I was wondering what the differance is between brasilian and other styles of jui-jitsu? Is bjj considered the best for MMA or..?

[CKD]

One of the main differences between BJJ and other styles of jujutsu is that bjj is more narrowly focused on groundfighting while traditional styles tend to focus on standing techniques such as striking, throwing and standiing joint locks. Some traditional jj styles have all the ground techniques of bjj but do not practice it enouph to be skilled at it. Depending on which school you go to the traditional style ussually do a lot of kata but there are many ryu's so it depends. BJJ tends has no kata and they do sparring at the end of class. But the sparring is limited to ground and they start from there knees so it is very one dimensional sparring. Most of bjj techniques are on ground oriented ones, so they lack very much in takedown skill, and about 2% of the schools teach bjj's striking techniques. But the striking is not really meant to hurt the person all are just faking techniques to close the distance. For example they have a kick that is just a big step to close the distance. No harm is done to the opponent and they also have a fake with the hands. People debate if a school not teaching the striking techniques of bjj is a bad thing because whats the point of teaching the strikes if they are mearly fakes that do not harm the opponent? While people supporting bjj schools teaching these strikes say that although these strikes are just fakes that do no harm they are important tools for closing the distance against the opponent. Is bjj the best art for mma? Although people claim that bjj is the ultimate grappling style or the single most effective style I would have to disagree. BJJ is a very one dimensional art. It got famous because Royce Gracie won the three out of 4 of the first UFCs. But he fought people pretty low in skill except for about two. He beat Ken Shamrock because Shamrock did not know about the gi and in there second match they fought to a draw in which Shamrock hit Royce in the guard and Royce just tried to keep him there. Another notable fighter he fought was Dan Severn in which he took a long time to put away. But Severn at that time did not no submissions(later Severn took Sambo for submissions) and he was reluctant to strike people. Most fighters today could have beat Severn at that stage of his training but it took Royce forever. What is worst is that there is evidence that Rorion set up the tournament for Royce. Art Davie tried to get a Sambo practicioner and a wrestling practicioner from Russia. But Rorion would not allow Art Davie to recruit them. Probaly because in Russia they have had NHB contests in the military as long as Brazil has had its vale tudo contests(if you notice they Rorion never got a Russian fighter for the UFC and that was probaly the reason), also sambo groundfighting is equal to bjj, and also Mark Schultz a American Wrestler lasted 30 minutes sparring with Rickson despite not knowing any subs. The Russian wrestler i heard was rumored to be as good as Schultz and the Russian wrestler could also simply go to a sambo school in Russia to learn subs before the event. When Oleg Taktarov arrived in America Rorion had him teach Royce leg locks(he never sparred with Royce though, I think he actually sparred and beat some senior academy members and that was the reason Rorion didn't want him to spar Royce. So a UFC person wanted Oleg to fight after seeing videos of Oleg fighting in Russia but Rorion said that Oleg was a horrible fighter and everything. The man ignored Rorions claims and Oleg fought in and won a UFC against much more skilled opponents than Royce fought. BJJ also had other problems even in the early days of mma. If you ask me what the best art for mma is I would say sambo. It has equal groundfighting to bjj, its takedowns are the best ones from judo and wrestling and it has striking from boxing, muay thai and various other arts. My belief that sambo is the best art for mma is confirmed by the recent success of sambo players in nhb(the world champion Fedor is a sambo practicioner and his team mates are all doing very well) and sambo players have done well despite that there is always few of them. Igor Zinoiev beat Mario Sperry considered by many the best bjj fighter alive, Ricardo Almeida got beat by a sambo guy in the UFC and other victories have been made by them. Many top mma fighters that are not sambo based fighters have made sambo there grappling art. Igor Vochancyn and Dan Severn both use sambo for grappling instead of other arts. Nearly all mma fighters train in sambo leg locks. Those are a few reasons why I think sambo is the best art. I hope I have answered all your questions.

[gabbah]

Wow that was SOME reply! :P
Thanks for clearing it up.. I didn't know bjj was so narrow.
Good points about UFC.. I have seen the history of Royce Gracie and you can see the differance in fighters back then vs. the ones fighting now.

So BJJ doesn't have leglocks??

I was asking about BJJ because I currently train kickboxning and loving it. And well, watching pride fc, I got curious about submissions as well, the ground game.. I don't like wrestling, I like the submissions: armbar, keylock, kimura and what not.
So maybe bjj is the thing for me after all then.. I don't want to put time into striking like you said they do in sambo.
Basically takedowns and submissions is what I'm after, mainly submissions.

One thing that attracted me with kickboxing is that it feels natural, if I was to use it in a real fight. No complicated "try to catch the hand and twist and turn"
From what I have seen of bjj in pride and ufc it looks pretty natural too.
What I don't like is if you have to fight with a gi. That feels unnatural to me. In most cases people don't wear clothes strong enough to be used in a submission, isn't that so?
Basically I find it hard to get motivation if it's not natural enough. I don't like the fancy stuff I guess. Also I like sparring.. a lot of sparring is what makes you better fast

thanks again!

[Hermosa]

The Gi is hard to understand from an outside perspective..but truly it becomes VERY natural and very important. I really reccomend learning real BJJ with a kimono. And IMO..people DEFINATELY wear clothes strong enough to be used for sweeps and submissions. In fact, I think that you are a 1000 times more likely to find your in a situation with a guy wearing a..Flannel, jean jacket, suit, sportcoat, Biker leathers, etc...Than you ever will with a guy in a speedo.

[CKD]

Originally Posted by gabbah

Wow that was SOME reply! :P
Thanks for clearing it up.. I didn't know bjj was so narrow.
Good points about UFC.. I have seen the history of Royce Gracie and you can see the differance in fighters back then vs. the ones fighting now.

So BJJ doesn't have leglocks??

I was asking about BJJ because I currently train kickboxning and loving it. And well, watching pride fc, I got curious about submissions as well, the ground game.. I don't like wrestling, I like the submissions: armbar, keylock, kimura and what not.
So maybe bjj is the thing for me after all then.. I don't want to put time into striking like you said they do in sambo.
Basically takedowns and submissions is what I'm after, mainly submissions.

One thing that attracted me with kickboxing is that it feels natural, if I was to use it in a real fight. No complicated "try to catch the hand and twist and turn"
From what I have seen of bjj in pride and ufc it looks pretty natural too.
What I don't like is if you have to fight with a gi. That feels unnatural to me. In most cases people don't wear clothes strong enough to be used in a submission, isn't that so?
Basically I find it hard to get motivation if it's not natural enough. I don't like the fancy stuff I guess. Also I like sparring.. a lot of sparring is what makes you better fast

thanks again!

BJJ has a few basic leg locks. Many leg locks are banned in bjj tournaments depending on belt. But comparing the amount of leg locks sambo has to bjj sambo has a lot more. With bjj you will get little takedowns but it has some decent groundfighting. I would still suggest a sambo school to you. It has even groundfighting to bjj and some wicked leg locks that bjj does not have and also you will become good at takedowns and standing grappling. You could find a sambo school that concentrates on grappling if you do not wish to learn strikes(there are quite a few schools that concentrate on grappling) or you could simply tell your instructor about it. Training with a kimono or a kutka(sambo's version of a kimono only it gives a bit less to grab on to so it is a bit mre like no-gi) is mportant. It prepares you for the street and makes you a more technical grappler. It helps prepare you for the no-gi because with a gi or kurtka a person has more control over you making you harder to control without a kutka. Many people in the UFC and Pride train with a gi or kurtka. The whole Brazilian Top Team, Oleg Taktarov, Fedor, Silva, Ninjaect.

[Ronson]

CKD,

As a BJJ nuthugger, it's nice to see a Sambo nuthugger as dedicated as you in promoting the style. Although I disagree with your position that Sambo is equal to BJJ on the ground, I can't fault your support for Sambo as it is pretty bad ass and alot of good fighters come from that base.

Big ups, keep training, and respec'

[gabbah]

Originally Posted by Hermosa

The Gi is hard to understand from an outside perspective..but truly it becomes VERY natural and very important. I really reccomend learning real BJJ with a kimono. And IMO..people DEFINATELY wear clothes strong enough to be used for sweeps and submissions. In fact, I think that you are a 1000 times more likely to find your in a situation with a guy wearing a..Flannel, jean jacket, suit, sportcoat, Biker leathers, etc...Than you ever will with a guy in a speedo.

I know what a gi is, but never heard of kimono other than in samuraj movies
So are you saying I can choke someone out by grabbing his t-shirt and make a submission with it? I think the t-shirt would rip.. no?

and LOL, thanks for the image of a guy in a bar wearing only speedos, hahahaha!

[gabbah]

Originally Posted by CKD

BJJ has a few basic leg locks. Many leg locks are banned in bjj tournaments depending on belt. But comparing the amount of leg locks sambo has to bjj sambo has a lot more. With bjj you will get little takedowns but it has some decent groundfighting. I would still suggest a sambo school to you. It has even groundfighting to bjj and some wicked leg locks that bjj does not have and also you will become good at takedowns and standing grappling. You could find a sambo school that concentrates on grappling if you do not wish to learn strikes(there are quite a few schools that concentrate on grappling) or you could simply tell your instructor about it. Training with a kimono or a kutka(sambo's version of a kimono only it gives a bit less to grab on to so it is a bit mre like no-gi) is mportant. It prepares you for the street and makes you a more technical grappler. It helps prepare you for the no-gi because with a gi or kurtka a person has more control over you making you harder to control without a kutka. Many people in the UFC and Pride train with a gi or kurtka. The whole Brazilian Top Team, Oleg Taktarov, Fedor, Silva, Ninjaect.

Yeah they have more control over me with a gi, BUT I also have more control over them. BTW, what is a "kurtka"? It sound like a russian dish with cucumber in it?

Thanks for the great input. Sambo sounds interesting

[CKD]

Originally Posted by Ronson

CKD,

As a BJJ nuthugger, it's nice to see a Sambo nuthugger as dedicated as you in promoting the style. Although I disagree with your position that Sambo is equal to BJJ on the ground, I can't fault your support for Sambo as it is pretty bad ass and alot of good fighters come from that base.

Big ups, keep training, and respec'

I prefer the term advocate instead of nuthugger . I have trained in bjj and I think they are rouphly equal on the ground. Many sambo people are doing well in bjj. I am not just a sambo guy I also enjoy other Russian arts since I find them among the most complete.

[Uber_Tap]

CKD I understand your points on sambo because it is a good art. With that said, you over simplify. My bjj school taught leg locks, lots of leg locks, but with a lot of caution. With almost all leg locks you expose yourself. One of my favorite bjj techniques(most likely barrowed from sambo) was a pass from half guard straight to a knee bar. This worked great, but my neck was exposed during my guard pass and advanced students would snatch the oportunity to go for the neck. Our instructor was pretty progressive, so he included a lot of take-downs in our training. We had a guy that was an all-american wrestler(he was a bjj purple belt) and he taught a wrestling class once a week. This is where we learned take-downs. Although we did usually start sparring from our knees, wrestling night was pretty much all about the take-downs.

It really depends upon the school you go to, do you homework. I think bjj is the greatest ground fighting system, but I don't think there is an ultimate MMA system anymore. You have to have a solid foundation in all aspects of fighting to survive these days.

[CKD]

Originally Posted by Uber_Tap

CKD I understand your points on sambo because it is a good art. With that said, you over simplify. My bjj school taught leg locks, lots of leg locks, but with a lot of caution. With almost all leg locks you expose yourself. One of my favorite bjj techniques(most likely barrowed from sambo) was a pass from half guard straight to a knee bar. This worked great, but my neck was exposed during my guard pass and advanced students would snatch the oportunity to go for the neck. Our instructor was pretty progressive, so he included a lot of take-downs in our training. We had a guy that was an all-american wrestler(he was a bjj purple belt) and he taught a wrestling class once a week. This is where we learned take-downs. Although we did usually start sparring from our knees, wrestling night was pretty much all about the take-downs.

It really depends upon the school you go to, do you homework. I think bjj is the greatest ground fighting system, but I don't think there is an ultimate MMA system anymore. You have to have a solid foundation in all aspects of fighting to survive these days.

You bring up good points although I do not believe bjj is the best groundfighting art ever. I am not sure if any art is worthy of that title. It is good your school recognizes the weaknesses of bjj and made up for it by training wrestling.

[Sportgrappler]

BJJ is one of several grappling styles.

Its influence (what made it so noteworthy) was 1) that it showed that groundwork was essencial to a rounded fighter whereas previously people seemed to not understand or accept this, and 2) that sport fighting (sparring) was an effective way to train, as opposed to katas or imitating animals (wrestlers, boxers and kickboxers have known this for decades). Consequently, one finds out quickly what works and what is nonsense. There is a lot of nonsense out there in the MA world.

There are other sophisticated grappling styles, as well, and SAMBO or Submission Wrestling are the best I've come across (except for BJJ, of course, but I'm biased).

BJJ uses the gi a lot (sometimes called a kimono - is it a "hat" or a "cap" you wear?) and that affects the game tremendously as it provides a lot of places to grab and hold. This allows for about 200% more techniques that non-gi grappling systems don't have and allows the game to be slowed down a little bit, which is good for me since I'm old and fat.

BJJ does have leg submissions (judo does, too) but they are seen less often because they are not allowed at the lower levels and consequently, it seems, practicioners have become used to using upper-body submissions. I believe SAMBO emphasizes leg attacks as it was originally a military martial art and they figured that breaking one guy's leg and not killing him during wartime would slow down all his buddies, too, so one casualty became several. Similar idea behind NATOs use of the 5.56 mm round instead of the 7.62 mm. You can leave a dead guy behind but a wounded one stops things up.

Some BJJ guys cross-train with Judo, which suppliments your game beautifully. This will get you takedowns with the gi on. If you prefer without a gi, then your best bet is normal wrestling (Greco-Roman, Freestyle, Collegiate, etc.) Part of SAMBO's beauty is that they work on their takedowns, as well. I am still a little surprised that BJJ does not do this much (or, I should say, where I do BJJ).

I have not seen any striking in BJJ itself, but a lot of BJJ guys cross-train. Once someone starts doing this, they are "mixed" martial artists and their game is no longer purely BJJ. It is not uncommon for there to exist generic "grapplers" (Submission Wrestlers, SAMBO guys, wrestlers) who develop their gi work, their no-gi work, and then cross train over to some sort of kickboxing such as Thai boxing and the same goes in the other direction. Often, a grappler and kickboxer become pals and then try to bring each other up to speed or, if you're lucky, your gym does both and you can just jump into the other programs and learn what you like.

Then there is the in-between range, often called "ground and pound." You can learn this in a variety of places. I suggest SLO Kickboxing and/or The Pit (think Chuck Liddell) or AKA, though there are others, of course.

There is also regular discussion about whether it is wiser to practice with or without a gi. To this I would argue that the gi will train you to fight in cooler weather, where people wear jackets. The western collar is easier to choke with than the kimono's long lappel, by the way. If you live somewhere hot, like California or Arizona, where people wear t-shirts far more often, then practicing gi-less may prove more useful.

But in any event, you will learn a lot from any of these systems.

Alright, that's my more-than-two-cents.

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by gabbah

Hello everyone.
I often hear about bjj in UFC and pride fc.
So I was wondering what the differance is between brasilian and other styles of jui-jitsu? Is bjj considered the best for MMA or..?

HI Gabbah,
Do not bother to compare BJJ with TJJ.
TJJ and BJJ are 2 different styles.
BJJ is only only interested in winning fights by submision by chokes and locks.
While TJJ will have an addition of strikes, it makes them weaker because such techniques cannot be pratice 110% against 'unwilling' opponents/training partners.
However, BJJ is not the best for MMA.
BJJ might be a good option for MMA.
To conclude, the GJJ can take the credits for the first UFCs.

[Sportgrappler]

Originally Posted by CKD

I prefer the term advocate instead of nuthugger . I have trained in bjj and I think they are rouphly equal on the ground. Many sambo people are doing well in bjj. I am not just a sambo guy I also enjoy other Russian arts since I find them among the most complete.

What other arts come from Russia? What's interesting?

I've heard of Systema but I don't know a lot about what it really is.

Great marketing, though, by those guys, however.

[CKD]

Originally Posted by Sportgrappler

What other arts come from Russia? What's interesting?

I've heard of Systema but I don't know a lot about what it really is.

Great marketing, though, by those guys, however.

Many arts come from Russia and other former soviet countries. There is ROSS, Draka, Russian fistcuffs, Agni Kempo, and many other styles. Actually there are more than one type of sambo! What I find interesting about them could take a while. One thing is just the effectiveness of the arts. Anything else ussualy depends on the person checking out the art.