Dan Ranks

[Hardball]

I posted a similar thread on another ma message board and got a good response, however I wanted to hear more opinions/views so I'm posting it here.

I Chose the mma/brazillian thread because it has the most traffic. I normally stay in the Japanese forumn.

The topic is Dan ranks. How common is it for someone to create their own system and give themselves a high dan rank?

How hard is it in your chosen system to make 1,2,3,4 dan ect, ect, ect.

What are the requirements? Is it a written test? Is it hands on and demonstration of skill and technique? Or is it honorary?

I would like to hear some stories, experiences and opinions. All systems please feel free to contribute to this very important discussion.

Thanks,

Bowing Out

Hardball

[sirmattu]

Theres a guy in my home state ( go ohio! ) that has created his own style, and although my 12 year old lil sister could handle this dude he did the whole honorary thing and proclaimed himself as a 10th dan and a grandmaster. But i have a question..... isnt it constumary for the creator of a martial art to be a 10th dan, because if not, then how would anyone be able to accomplish anything higher than what founder is?

[Hardball]

Originally Posted by sirmattu

Theres a guy in my home state ( go ohio! ) that has created his own style, and although my 12 year old lil sister could handle this dude he did the whole honorary thing and proclaimed himself as a 10th dan and a grandmaster. But i have a question..... isnt it constumary for the creator of a martial art to be a 10th dan, because if not, then how would anyone be able to accomplish anything higher than what founder is?

That's the point of this thread. To get a wide variety of input on this subject. Just sit back and wait; next week we should have our answer.

Bowing Out

Hardball

P.S. The scenario you described is a disgrace!!!

[Jeremy Lobdell]

The people that I know, have trained under, and have been friends with who own mma schools don't even follow the whole belt rank thing. There are no gi's worn, therefore, no belt system at all. In my school, for example, there are a few people who have been promoted to various instructor ranks, but they wear the same thing to class that I or any other student does, the school t-shirt or rash guard and either shorts or bjj style gi pants. Because there is no belt structure, the students that are attracted to this kind of training seem to be interested in developing their technique and abilities as opposed to worrying about what they need to do to recieve their next belt promotion.
I don't want this to sound like the tipical traditional arts bashing, because I have trained in traditional arts for a long time and hold nothing but the highest respect for anyone who chooses to walk this path. I feel you're trying to compare apples and oranges, so to speak. Because of the lack of a belt ranking, the emphasis of the student when looking for a school is where it should be, the knowledge of the instructor and the lineage and organizations that he or she represent, as opposed to what level black belt they are. With this being the focus, as opposed to something that can unfortunately be controlled by politics ( I've seen it happen way to many times ) as is the case with belt ranking, there is much less overinflation or fraud when it comes to ranking or self promotion.
As far as bjj goes, even with a belt system, there are no self proclamed Grand Masters (as far as I know). The system has been around a whole lot less time that traditional arts. In addition to that, the long time head-GM is still alive. It is normally during the death of the recognized GM that the politics and self promotion happens. Fortunately, this hasn't happened in BJJ.
I hope this helps, or at least isn't to far off from what you were looking for.
Mahalo, Jeremy

[Hardball]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Lobdell

The people that I know, have trained under, and have been friends with who own mma schools don't even follow the whole belt rank thing. There are no gi's worn, therefore, no belt system at all. In my school, for example, there are a few people who have been promoted to various instructor ranks, but they wear the same thing to class that I or any other student does, the school t-shirt or rash guard and either shorts or bjj style gi pants. Because there is no belt structure, the students that are attracted to this kind of training seem to be interested in developing their technique and abilities as opposed to worrying about what they need to do to recieve their next belt promotion.
I don't want this to sound like the tipical traditional arts bashing, because I have trained in traditional arts for a long time and hold nothing but the highest respect for anyone who chooses to walk this path. I feel you're trying to compare apples and oranges, so to speak. Because of the lack of a belt ranking, the emphasis of the student when looking for a school is where it should be, the knowledge of the instructor and the lineage and organizations that he or she represent, as opposed to what level black belt they are. With this being the focus, as opposed to something that can unfortunately be controlled by politics ( I've seen it happen way to many times ) as is the case with belt ranking, there is much less overinflation or fraud when it comes to ranking or self promotion.
As far as bjj goes, even with a belt system, there are no self proclamed Grand Masters (as far as I know). The system has been around a whole lot less time that traditional arts. In addition to that, the long time head-GM is still alive. It is normally during the death of the recognized GM that the politics and self promotion happens. Fortunately, this hasn't happened in BJJ.
I hope this helps, or at least isn't to far off from what you were looking for.
Mahalo, Jeremy

It contributes to the discussion and that all you can ask for on a message board. My wing chun school was beltless and ghi-less;kinda reminds me of what you are describing. I thought old man Gracie {Helieo} was one of the Grandmasters of BJJ. Jeremy; what about the middle Dan ranks 2,3,4,5-what do you know about acquiring them? Written test, practicum, physical demonstation or honorary?

[Jeremy Lobdell]

As far as I know in bjj, nothing is honorary. Belt ranks and lineage is guarded and protected very closely with things like www.bjj.org. If bjj has a GM, Helio is definitely it, and the only one. I don't know of anyone else claiming it as all lower level black belts were once students of his, or students of his student, ect. Everything I've seen as far as promotion is based entirely on skill and technique, with a lot longer time requirements between belt ranks, for kyu and dan.

[Alfalfa]

Helio and Carlos (Helio's older brother) are both considered grandmasters of BJJ. As of yet there is no standard for belt ranking and promotion in BJJ, it is at the discretion of the instructor. Carlos, Jr. however is attempting to establish universal criteria to eliminate unworthy promotions. Royce Gracie in last month's issue of Grappling stated that it simply requires time for his students to obtain their Black Belt. His requirement is for his students to be able to teach him the entire self defense program.

[Hardball]

More stories please. What about you other systems? What is it like to get tested for 1,2,3 Dan?

[wardancer]

In BJJ, once awarded black belt, you just give yourselves another dan every 3 active year of BJJ. e.g a third dan bJJ will have been BB for the last 6 years. No more exams, no politics!

Not long ago, BJJ did not even had a belt system anyway!
They used to have about 3 colours.
"). At that time, there was no such thing as a “Gracie black belt”. According to A História do Jiu Jitsu através dos tempos (mentioned below), students wore white belts, instructors wore dark blue belts, and the masters wore light blue belts (" o aluno era faixa branca, o instrutor era faixa azul escuro e o mestre azul clara"). In addition, there were no degrees ( Japanese dan, Portuguese grau) at each belt level, specifically in order to distinguish jiu-jitsu from judo ("para não se confundir com o judô, não haviam graduacões de faixa"). http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...rpo_quatro.htm

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Lobdell

As far as I know in bjj, nothing is honorary. Belt ranks and lineage is guarded and protected very closely with things like www.bjj.org. If bjj has a GM, Helio is definitely it, and the only one. I don't know of anyone else claiming it as all lower level black belts were once students of his, or students of his student, ect. Everything I've seen as far as promotion is based entirely on skill and technique, with a lot longer time requirements between belt ranks, for kyu and dan.

There are much more BB than what the www.Bjj.org offers as info.
I suspect the Gracie just want to promote their own belts and discredit other factions as usual.

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Hardball

Just sit back and wait; next week we should have our answer

What about we cut to the chase and see what is your opinion?
Do you want a belt system: yes, no?
If so why?
What alternative do you offer: have separate classes between advanced and begginners?

What about competition, since you might want to take the belt system, would it be fair to 'match' competitor by their fighting record e.g number of wins/losses/fights or will also use weight category.

How would you seperate the beginners from getting physically and mentally trashed by more advanced students.

You have to remember that the belt system is there to 'nurture' the new members without loosing to much 'street' MA credibility by becoming a mc dojo.

In my national BJJ open chanpionship, you can fight in your own weight category and in the open category (meaning no weight limits), I chose to fight in both.
In a BB Judo want to enter as a white belt, so be it.

Actually fighting in the BJJ colored belt competition is harder because due to the lack of competition, it is likely it will be an open category most of the time.

In BJJ, taking the gi off is an option, actually it is encouraged once we do that you are allowed to use leg lock (forbidden techniqques for white belts) and you can train vale tudo.
But even if I go a no gi training class, we always start with gi just because it is bJJ afterall.

In BJJ he does not matter how much techniques you think you can demonstrate, if you do win versus others you will never get promoted.
In BJJ, there is a formal exam for graduation but I have never heard someone failing it. Once you are been offered the oppportunity to graduate for blue belt for e.g, it means your BJJ instructor reckons it is time for you to move up.
The exam is just a formality and a chance for him and the class to physically belt you with their own belt.

[Jeremy Lobdell]

[quote=wardancer]Actually fighting in the BJJ colored belt competition is harder because due to the lack of competition, it is likely it will be an open category most of the time.[quote]


Where the hell do you live? Competition must really suck there, or your experience is pretty limited.
And before you decide to post some snappy comeback, remember where I live and that submission grappling ( naga, ect.) is rated the second best in the world here, right behind Brazil. I wouldn't think of guys like Egan Inoue and Barrett Yoshida as lack of competition, or B.J. Penn and Chaburo Verisimo, who competed here for years as colored belts.
I was siteing bjj.org as a refrence source for someone not that familiar with this part of the ma world. For you to dismiss it, while quoting Renzo in your sig is a new level of hypocracy. Good job, way to go!

[Jeremy Lobdell]

[quote=Alfalfa]Royce Gracie in last month's issue of Grappling stated that it simply requires time for his students to obtain their Black Belt. [ QUOTE]


Yes, this still averages out to be about 10 years, doesn't it?

[wardancer]

[quote=Jeremy Lobdell][quote=wardancer]Actually fighting in the BJJ colored belt competition is harder because due to the lack of competition, it is likely it will be an open category most of the time.

Where the hell do you live? Competition must really suck there, or your experience is pretty limited.
And before you decide to post some snappy comeback, remember where I live and that submission grappling ( naga, ect.) is rated the second best in the world here, right behind Brazil. I wouldn't think of guys like Egan Inoue and Barrett Yoshida as lack of competition, or B.J. Penn and Chaburo Verisimo, who competed here for years as colored belts.
I was siteing bjj.org as a refrence source for someone not that familiar with this part of the ma world. For you to dismiss it, while quoting Renzo in your sig is a new level of hypocracy. Good job, way to go!

I live in New Zealand and yes it is pretty small competition here unfortune.
Hawai is pretty full on BJJ. So good for you!
My point about BJJ.org is not the full list, it is just the list of gracies factions.
There are heaps more bJJers than the ones mentionned on the website.
Oh yes, I am not an hypocrit as I do like Renzo but the other Gracies well you know...

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Your post makes a lot more sense now, no offense meant to you, wardancer. And New Zeland is a very beautiful place, I would love to visit. It's unfortunate that there isn't more competition there. I've competed at Grapple Quest in Scotsdale, AZ and the Gracie-Arnold classic in Columbus, OH. Both were always packed with people, of all belt ranks. I understand what you're saying about there being more than just Gracies in bjj, but as far as I know, even people not directly associated with them still defer to Helio as the GM of bjj. At least no one out there is claiming to be the same belt rank, which is a problem in more traditional ma's and the point of Hardball posting this thread. Any time you want to come to Hawaii, let me know. I'm in a great school with a bunch of guys that love to train and compete.
Mahalo, Jeremy