BJJ players will you help?

[Spider Web]

BJJ player's will you please help me by answering some question's to give me some first hand insight to your art.

I have been in Martial Arts for several years, specifically Karate and recently I left Karate to study and learn Aikido. In addition to Aikido I have wanted to cross train in another art and I have been fasinated with BJJ for some time though I really know nothing about it.

I recently explained to an acquaintance that I was interested in cross training into BJJ and they asked why. I explained to them that I feel confident in my skills as long as I'm on my feet, however, should I end up on the ground I do not have any training for that side of a fight. The person followed up by saying the following things, BJJ is a sport NOT a practical self defense art. He went on to say, people do not wear gi's on the street Chris, what if you get into it with someone with no shirt on for you to grab, OR what if you grab their shirt (if they are wearing one) and it tears and you lose your grip? And let's say that you do get someone on the ground then what? If you can't get to their head to choke them out what are you going to do? Let them loose from some hold you have them in and expect them to just get up and walk away? What if you end up on the ground and then they produce a weapon like a knife? What if someone (not trained in any art) just faster and more than athletic got you on the ground. As you can imagine by now I wish I had kept my mouth shut.

PLEASE understand, I know we can all "what if" things to death, but I do want anyone reading this to understand this person was not being at all disrespectful towards BJJ and futhermore they have NO experience in BJJ. I would like for someone however, to address the things that he mentioned if you don't mind?

In addition, I have a few question's of my own if youwill please indulge me:
1. Does BJJ teach you how to protect yourself from a weapons attack? Like a knife?
2. Can a BJJ player stand a chance against a boxer?
3. Is 37 to late to get started in this art and be successful?
4. Can you defend yourself against someone much stronger than yourself?
5. Does anyone know how BJJ will fair against amatuer wrestling? Unfortunately there are a bunch of trouble makers in this part of the country and it seems if everyone of them was some type of wrestling champ in school or college?
6. On average how long does it take to earn a black belt in Bjj?

Thanks in advance for ALL of your help and your replies.

[Ronson]

First off,

Never listen to someone who doesn't know what the F_CK they are talking about. You wouldn't take medical advice from a lay-person would you? (Funny thing is, many people seem to listen and follow the directions of their Dr. the least)

"BJJ is a sport NOT a practical self defense art. He went on to say, people do not wear gi's on the street Chris, what if you get into it with someone with no shirt on for you to grab, OR what if you grab their shirt (if they are wearing one) and it tears and you lose your grip? And let's say that you do get someone on the ground then what? If you can't get to their head to choke them out what are you going to do? Let them loose from some hold you have them in and expect them to just get up and walk away?"

BJJ basically has three aspects to it: (1) The Gi; (2) No-Gi or Submission grappling; and (3) MMA / Vale Tudo

It's true, grips play a role in the sport / Gi game, but it's not the end all be all. It's also about positioning and leverage (with dominant positioning and leverage over a person, you're in the driver seat to mount a submission or even potential strikes). The sport aspect with the Gi "slows" the pace down (slow is a relative term, trust me), and therefore allows the development of pure technique and offensive / defensive skills. The submission grappling game is way faster with no grips (although you develop other "grips" in the process) and so your game needs to be tight. MMA is the incorporation of all ranges of fighting.

People think the "tap" or submission is some how inferior to strikes or that we'll somehow let "holds" go in a real fight if someone cries "Uncle". The tap out is a tool and training courtesy to our training partners. In a real fight, we'll snap/dislocate whatever joint we have or put someone to sleep. I'll tell you what, I'd rather get knocked out than have my shoulder or knee jacked up because that kind of injury never really resolves itself back to normal.

"What if you end up on the ground and then they produce a weapon like a knife? "

Look, I have no grand delusions that my BJJ training is gonna help me fend off a knife attack because I don't train with it in mind. Mind you, I doubt most Karate and Aikido curriculums prepare their students either ("Aliveness" training - look it up). In a knife situation, I'd haul ass or try to find a weapon of my own.

Now to your questions,
1. For the most part NO, but Rorion Gracie has some street / weapons defence training programs which are very respected and taught in some police academies.
2. Not only a chance, but a HUGE friggin' chance! Back in the early UFC days, when fighters were one-dimensional, grapplers OWNED strikers and especially pure boxers. They're just like fish out of water. A boxer had a "puncher's chance" over a skilled grappler.
3. 37 YOA is not too old to start. If by successful you mean by winning the Worlds or ADCC, then no. But if you mean by attaining practical and respectable skills, then yes.
4. If the person is much stronger than you, then somehow you have to bridge that discrepancy through technique and positioning, although it's not a guarantee and more like a sliding scale.
5. Pure BJJ versus pure wrestling - BJJ again fairs really well bc we're well versed being on our back and have submissions to boot. Don't get me wrong, wrestling is bad ass, and again the sliding scale of technique and strength applies here too.
6. Unlike other martial arts, BJJ doesn't just hand out black belts. A BJJ blackbelt is a legitamate bad ass for the most part. You won't for sure see 8 year old BB's in BJJ (even the Gracie kids have to perform to BB standards). The average time is 7-10 years, although some have gotten them way sooner because they've proved that they can perform against their BB peers (usually through a national/world tournament)

[cakegirl]

Originally Posted by Ronson

1. For the most part NO, but Rorion Gracie has some street / weapons defence training programs which are very respected and taught in some police academies.

He has also started teaching a self-defence course to airline staff. http://www.gracieacademy.com/access/index.html

[BadgerFu57]

Remember that sport Ju-Jitsu and self-defense are different but go hand in hand. On the street, you may not want to be on your back, but if you can protect yourself while their and safely get up off the ground, that's good. It takes skill, and if you find a BJJ instructor who will show you how to defend punches from the guard and safely get up in a street fight, that's a good deal.

The gi is a TRAINING TOOL. It builds grip and slows the game down. It's good for beginners. After 6 months, you should be able to take it off and start learning the no-gi game.

I disagree with most people who think you can tap anyone in any other martial art after 6 months of training. No way. Just like other arts, it takes time to bridge the gap between technique and athleticism. Being athletic helps, but over time, technique will overcome athleticism.

With your aikido and karate backgrounds, you should have an easy time seeing how to make slight modifications to sport techniques to make them street effective. Remember, training is about safety and learning, hence the sport rules.

Tell me how your journey goes.

[vincechoo]

1. Does BJJ teach you how to protect yourself from a weapons attack? Like a knife?
- Not necessarily - if you're in a competitive academy then probably never but in a school that teaches the self defense aspect then a good chance. Look into Karl Tanswell's STAB program or Jerry Wetzel's Red Zone knife works.

2. Can a BJJ player stand a chance against a boxer?
- it depends on the individual skills but I'd daresay the grappler will win if he manages to get into clinching range (assuming he survives against the punches)

3. Is 37 to late to get started in this art and be successful?
- I started at 36... and got my blue last October.

4. Can you defend yourself against someone much stronger than yourself?
- stronger and unskilled? probably.

5. Does anyone know how BJJ will fair against amatuer wrestling? Unfortunately there are a bunch of trouble makers in this part of the country and it seems if everyone of them was some type of wrestling champ in school or college?
- no experience in this area

6. On average how long does it take to earn a black belt in Bjj?
- 7-10 years on average unless your last name is Gracie then maybe in 5-6

Hope this helps

[shamster]

Originally Posted by Chris Ward

In addition, I have a few question's of my own if youwill please indulge me:
1. Does BJJ teach you how to protect yourself from a weapons attack? Like a knife?
2. Can a BJJ player stand a chance against a boxer?
3. Is 37 to late to get started in this art and be successful?
4. Can you defend yourself against someone much stronger than yourself?
5. Does anyone know how BJJ will fair against amatuer wrestling? Unfortunately there are a bunch of trouble makers in this part of the country and it seems if everyone of them was some type of wrestling champ in school or college?
6. On average how long does it take to earn a black belt in Bjj?

1. Yes, but not heavily emphasized though. There are self defense aspects that address this issue. Although I would not like to enter a knife fight with anyone regardless of what style I'm trained in or how good I am at it.

2. Yes, been done many times.

3. There are several guys who started bjj much later than 37. Of course the younger you are, the more you can accomplish over time, and some things will be easier if you have the flexibility and energy of a younger guy, but anyone can benefit from training.

4. Yes. I am new to bjj myself, but in less than 2 months of training, I can survive better against bigger opponents. I definitely cannot defeat big strong opponents yet (or even close to it). But what I can do better already is "survive" a little longer against them. Before, I would probably panic and not know what to do if a guy who outweighs me by a lot has me pinned down with his full weight. Now, I can at least stay relaxed and have a chance of escaping. It's amazing what you can do by utilizing positions and leverage.

5. Wrestling is effective with take downs and pins. A good wrestler will give a relatively new bjj practitioner a hard time. However, I think where bjj excels by far as you improve over time is the finishing moves.

6. I agree with what others say. 7-10 years of serious training. Could be longer if you train at a rate of once a week or less. Maybe even never for some, since getting a black belt does require a real dedication to the art. Something not easily accomplished if you have a full time job and family. Could be less than 7 years if you train hard almost everyday.

Also, I agree a gi is a training tool, and a good one at that. It's also interesting to note that a lot of people who criticize the practical use of gis also happen to be wearing a shirt that has a collar on it, with jeans, and often a coat. Gi techniques can be easily used on many everyday clothing.

[Tant01]

Chris W. wrote>> "I have wanted to cross train in another art and I have been fasinated with BJJ for some time though I really know nothing about it.<<<


BJJ is Judo newaza or Kosen Judo... It has no Ru Ha... The name Ju-jitsu seems misleading to me but whatever.....


http://www.geocities.com/ibfaustralia/kosen.html

[JohnnyS]

Tant01,
Are you still on your crusade? Whta exactly are you trying to achieve? And what is "Ru Ha"?

[Tant01]

Crusade? What crusade? I'm supposed to call something Ju- jitsu that is clearly not ju jitsu? I'm too old for that. I have been to the "academy", I've seen the "Jiu-Jitsu" and the funny thing is IT'S JUDO. You want me to call it Brazilian Judo, no problem... You want me to call it Ju jitsu there's a problem. Judo came from Ju-Jitsu. Brazilian Jiu-jutsu came from Judo...If it were really ju jitsu it would come from ju-jitsu. It does not.

edit...Ryu Ha = School or system of traditional Ju-Jitsu. The GJJ/BJJ can not claim any legitimate connection to ANY Ryu Ha... Only Judo.

Call it whatever you like.

[JohnnyS]

I thought we'd already been through this. When the Gracies were taught by Maeda, the terms "ju-jitsu" and "judo" were inter-changeable. Many times it was called "Kano's ju-jitsu". I can also tell you that Brazilian Judokas would not want BJJ guys to call their art Brazilian Judo.

You really need to get over this. They are different arts, with different rulesets. You're just making yourself look foolish.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by JohnnyS

I thought we'd already been through this. When the Gracies were taught by Maeda, the terms "ju-jitsu" and "judo" were inter-changeable. Many times it was called "Kano's ju-jitsu". I can also tell you that Brazilian Judokas would not want BJJ guys to call their art Brazilian Judo.

You really need to get over this. They are different arts, with different rulesets. You're just making yourself look foolish.

Whatever Johnny, Ju-Jutsu has one purpose. It's not a sport or a game with rules that can be changed to make a new game... That would be Judo. Ju-Jitsu had no belt ranking system, again, that would be Judo. Ju-Jitsu incorporates many weapons and techniques that KILL people for real not the "SYMBOLIC" death by submission. That would be Judo...


"While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties. While the old schools taught nothing but practice, the modern Judo gives the theoretical explanation of the doctrine, at the same time giving the practical a no less important place".
.....T. Shidachi, 1892


Seems like the differences were clear enough back then... I guess that is no longer the case.

[JohnnyS]

And you think your bitching about it will change anything?

[Tant01]

Now THAT would be foolish wouldn't it? Imagine ME trying to educate anyone, LOL...

[wardancer]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Crusade? What crusade? I'm supposed to call something Ju- jitsu that is clearly not ju jitsu? I'm too old for that. I have been to the "academy", I've seen the "Jiu-Jitsu" and the funny thing is IT'S JUDO. You want me to call it Brazilian Judo, no problem... You want me to call it Ju jitsu there's a problem. Judo came from Ju-Jitsu. Brazilian Jiu-jutsu came from Judo...If it were really ju jitsu it would come from ju-jitsu. It does not.

edit...Ryu Ha = School or system of traditional Ju-Jitsu. The GJJ/BJJ can not claim any legitimate connection to ANY Ryu Ha... Only Judo.

Call it whatever you like.

What don't you take it up to the Gracies themselves rather than BORING us with info that we are all too aware of: BJJ unit 101 lesson: BJJ is not JJJ but from Judo?
Maybe Calson Gracie will be able to give you in more details why his dad choosed to use BJJ rather than Bjudo?
Thanks

[jules]

Crusade? What crusade? I'm supposed to call something Ju- jitsu that is clearly not ju jitsu? I'm too old for that. I have been to the "academy", I've seen the "Jiu-Jitsu" and the funny thing is IT'S JUDO. You want me to call it Brazilian Judo, no problem... You want me to call it Ju jitsu there's a problem. Judo came from Ju-Jitsu. Brazilian Jiu-jutsu came from Judo...If it were really ju jitsu it would come from ju-jitsu. It does not.

Judo comes from various forms of JJ. Carlos Sr. was taught by a Maeda who was not just a Judo (or Kano-ryu jiu-jitsu) guy. Maeda was also a western wrestler and fought in various matches and took in "western wrestling" (such as the double/single leg takedowns in judo were adopted from wrestling). Now, Maeda was kicked out of Kodokan as was told not to use the name "judo". That and the fact that his other influences such as boxing/western wrestling IMHO was some of the reasons why he chose to call it "jiu-jitsu". Carlos Sr. just kept the name.

edit...Ryu Ha = School or system of traditional Ju-Jitsu. The GJJ/BJJ can not claim any legitimate connection to ANY Ryu Ha... Only Judo.

sure... They don't claim to be conneted to any existing school of Jiu-jitsu. The Gracies never denied that Maeda was their instructor so i don't know what your problem is. If Kano tweak jitsu and call it "judo" why can't the gracies call "their brand of Jiu-jitsu" , GJJ? Heck at least they are keeping the name of JJ unlike kano who chose to call it something else when it was just stand up Jiu-jitsu.