BJJ Black Belt Discrepancies

[pstevens]

For all the fuss BJJ folks are making about other arts, there’s a lot of inconsistencies with the belt grading of BJJ. It seems belts come very fast, depending on who you know and how much money you have. That and the fact that many blackbelts get tapped by purples, browns and even blues.

Here are some examples of discrepancies:

Vitor Belfort - Purple belt with Rickson, then goes to Carlson and is immediately promoted to Black Belt. Yet, everyone knows his skills on the ground are subpar.

Royce Gracie - Yes, even legendary Royce was promoted from Blue Belt to Black Belt in 2 years! I don’t know one TKD school that would do that. The truth is, even though he’s a 6th degree blackbelt, Royce couldn’t hang with many purples or new blackbelts on the competition level. Sure, he’s a good NHB fighter, but that’s not BJJ, which he’s now a 6+ degree black belt.

Eddie Bravo - Eddie tapped out Royler, who tapped out Joe Moriera, a 5th degree black belt. Does that make Eddie a 6th degree black belt? No, he just recently received his black belt. And when he tapped Royler, Eddie was a brown belt I believe. Royce is at least a 5-6th degree blackbelt?

Look out TKD, here comes BJJ... We now have stripe and belt testing, whenever the student feels he’s ready, and has money in hand. It used to be that you were awarded stripes and belts based on your skill level and knowledge. McBJJ is not far around the corner.

[shamster]

Unfortunately, it happens as any style grows in numbers. It was bound to happen with bjj.

As far as some of the Gracies though...it's not fair to say they were promoted from blue to black belt in "only" two years. They have been training all their lives in bjj. However, in bjj, one cannot receive a blue belt until at least the age of 16. So a 15 year old training since early childhood could be as good as some purple or brown belts, but due to the rules, he's not getting his blue for another year. Then he has to wait till he is 18 to get his black.

Also, it's going to happen once in a while where a higher belt will tap out to a lower ranked bjj'er. For one thing, everyone has a bad day and mistakes happen.

[moogong]

Shamster's correct, every art at some point will have mcdojos...that's not to say Royce is the product of a mcdojo (very far from it). As a style grows and the art spreads, the quality control will be harder to maintain. Thankfully, BJJ is still a very solid art with a solid reputation..enjoy it while it lasts...I know I do.

[RYO9]

I agree with many sides of this argument. First, it is BS that you can gain belts and ranks so fast. That's why I have such a lack of respect for TKD black belts (plus most are pussies who couldn't hang in a real fight). But BJJ has done some things to prevent that, with the age limits and such. But also I don't think you can rag on Royce Gracie for what he did, after all he is a gracie and probably was rolling before he could walk. Also, if the higher belt taps on a lower belt, that is probably a sign of either physical dominance or the that lower belt is ready to move up a rank. Getting trapped by a lower belt also doesn't mean anything, sometimes you need to get to a point where you tap on somwone at a lower rank in order to learn. The "BLACK BELT" makes people think they are better than what they are and thus stop progressing. Instead think of it like this, "Congradulations, you're 5 and can now start Kindergarten."

Mullins

[Hermosa]

I agree that there are some people involved in the art that can and do let things slide that they shouldn't. And Carlson Gracie ...IMO, is one of those dudes. My impression of him is an angry old man who is bitter about the success of his relatives. My understanding is that Rickson, who knows that Carlson is a bit of a goon, told Vitor that he could be one of the best ever if vitor would dedicate himself to Rickson and train hard...But, under the condition that he stop being involved in any BS with Carlson. Rickson did not trust Carlson and didn't want any crap to deal with. Vitor, couldn't handle that ultimatum and thus left Rickson..IMO..dumb move!

However, I also agree alot with shamster. Royce is F'in awesome. If you think Royce doesn't know good BJJ you don't have a clue. You know, the traditional Helio Gracie basics, are still totally excellent and important for a good foundation. Royce is amazing...and I'm not totally sure that those facts are correct about Royce getting his blackbelt in 2 years after the blue...But like shamster said...Royce was "born on the mat" He trained jiu-jitsu for 16 years to get his blue...so he's gonna progress quickly. But man, Royce put in his dues teaching at the Gracie Academy for like ten years. Nothing but kudos and respect to Royce!

Also, the simple honest criteria in BJJ belt ranking has not changed...the ability to hang with others at your same rank in full out grappling. IMO..the requirements have gone up. The tournament scene is far more competitive than in previous years. If anything belts are kept longer and are becoming harder to get. I have a friend who was just promoted to blue belt and he's only been training for about 5 months...BUT...he trains 4 days and week and 2 of those days he gos twice a day. And, he already has 3 tournaments under his belt..one of them being the Pan Ams! The guy lays waste to all the other white belts and a few blues..so the standard remains.

In BJJ the blackbelt is the prize..the degrees on the blackbelt in BJJ do not really symbolize increased fighting skill. Rigan told me once that blackbelt degrees were mainly given out every 2 years or so to denote continued involvment and giving back to the art...basically if you don't quit training and keep being active and teaching and spreading the art...you get another degree every couple of years...at under the CBJJ and Carlos Gracie Jr.

But let's not allow BJJ to become McDojo-ized. Train hard, work your basics. Be honest about your abilities, don't try to short cut, Roll with the hard guys, and above all, don't be some loser, who gets a blue belt and then creates his own system but really just does substandard BJJ...come on!

Thanks,, I'm done now.

[Hillbilly]

I have heard of several instructors that give away or sell belts. Marc from Texarkana got one from Allen Mohler, Machado would not even give him a brown belt so he went to Mohlers and got a black belt from him! If any one has any questions about anyone skills, they should go to Machado school and test their skills. Bring their belt and see how they do against even lower belts.

[shamster]

I agree too that Royce is still awesome. People can think what they want of him, but the fact is that he knows his jiu-jitsu. Sure, he is not as aggressive as some of the fighters today, and also not as cross trained as some. However, the fact that his less aggressive style can still enable him to hold his own shows that he really does have his techniques down. Same goes for Royler. Sure he's lost a few, but he's won many more. Royce also is not a big guy at all, and the fact that his techniques can allow him to even fight against bigger guys shows something too.

As stated earlier, it's inevitable that there will be a number of black belts out there that should not be. But I also don't think bjj will suffer the same fate as TKD. BJJ has been proven many times over to be effective and there are still a number of highly qualified black belts that will balance out the fakers.

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by pstevens

For all the fuss BJJ folks are making about other arts, there’s a lot of inconsistencies with the belt grading of BJJ. It seems belts come very fast, depending on who you know and how much money you have. That and the fact that many blackbelts get tapped by purples, browns and even blues.

Here are some examples of discrepancies:

Vitor Belfort - Purple belt with Rickson, then goes to Carlson and is immediately promoted to Black Belt. Yet, everyone knows his skills on the ground are subpar.

Royce Gracie - Yes, even legendary Royce was promoted from Blue Belt to Black Belt in 2 years! I don’t know one TKD school that would do that. The truth is, even though he’s a 6th degree blackbelt, Royce couldn’t hang with many purples or new blackbelts on the competition level. Sure, he’s a good NHB fighter, but that’s not BJJ, which he’s now a 6+ degree black belt.

Eddie Bravo - Eddie tapped out Royler, who tapped out Joe Moriera, a 5th degree black belt. Does that make Eddie a 6th degree black belt? No, he just recently received his black belt. And when he tapped Royler, Eddie was a brown belt I believe. Royce is at least a 5-6th degree blackbelt?

Look out TKD, here comes BJJ... We now have stripe and belt testing, whenever the student feels he’s ready, and has money in hand. It used to be that you were awarded stripes and belts based on your skill level and knowledge. McBJJ is not far around the corner.

this is a crock of shit for the most part. A black belt 20 years ago wasnt as advanced as they are today, an advanced purple today could roll with the blacks 20 years ago, the game has improved. Royce could easily compete with the guys today in BJJ, even if he was a "blue belt" 20 years ago, he was still training daily with some of the best BJJ guys in the world, thus he advanced much faster. ANd he would mop the map with todays purple belts, are you fucking kidding? BJ Penn got his black in 5 years, training every day.
Where are blacks getting tapped out by blue blets and purple belts???? I have never seen it, it is very very rare and its only usually a lucky collar choke or something that slips in.
Go train in real BJJ studio, open your eyes, you must be on crack

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by moogong

Shamster's correct, every art at some point will have mcdojos...that's not to say Royce is the product of a mcdojo (very far from it). As a style grows and the art spreads, the quality control will be harder to maintain. Thankfully, BJJ is still a very solid art with a solid reputation..enjoy it while it lasts...I know I do.

there cant be any "mcdojos", not in BJJ, they dont let anyone just go out and teach the art, they are approved from either graice barra or helios lineage