Painless but dangerous?

[JKD Student]

dkm wrote:

I am gonna cut and paste something that I read on some other forum about neck cranks. I don't know if the below statement is accurate but make whatever want of it:

Neck cranks put stress on the cervicle spine,....an injury to that would in a most severe case result in paraylsis or even possibly death.....also, you wont feel a cervicle strain right away...its the type of injury that wont hurt right away so you don't tap, but then the next morning you wake up and you can't move your neck........IMO a sub that could do that, should be banned from competition.....not to mention it is a sub that requires zero technique over strength....it is for wrestlers with ZERO BJJ experience.....neck cranks leave you open for armbars as well and are not a good idea to attempt.....I dispise neck cranks because i always see un-experienced "huge" guys attempt them on guys who are considerably smaller than them....it takes no skill whatsoever and its dangerous....just my opinion

This is a post from another thread that brought up questions for me. I am rather new to JJ and ground fighting skills in general, but I've never heard of any techniques that are painless while they are being executed yet are very dangerous. Generally if we are practicing repetetive movements like armbar from guard over and over just to rep it out, we don't lock out our partner because locking out the arm has nothing to do with the drill. If we are free grappeling or something similar, I usually wait until my opponent has applied the lock proplerly but tap before there is serious pain. We move slowly when applying locks in these conditions to give our partner plenty of time to tap before there's damage, but it gives us a feel for knowing when we have applied a technique proplerly and at what point we can expect continuing to cause permanent damage. This applies to the way we practice neck cranks as well as arm-bars, etc...

The post quoted above though, has made me wonder if I could be hurt sometime without knowing it, and wake up the next day paralyzed. I think I'm exaggerating to make my point, but my question is this:

Does anyone know from experience or a reliable source of techniques that are painless when they are executed that cause irreversable damage that will be felt later? Everything we practice seems to hurt when it starts to do damage, so I'm not familiar with the concept.

[OneDragons]

I know heel hooks produce a relatively small amount of pain (especially compared to other leg locks) until something snaps, then theres lots of pain

[OmaPlata]

anything can be bad because when you are working out and all pumped up its hard sometimes to feel the pain, such as shoulder locks and stuff...its better to roll with more advanced guys since they know when to stop applying presssure....ametuer white belts are in a panic to finish a move and crank things way too far at times

[bodhisattva]

a lot of that is based on what your community is like at your gym.

a gym that has COMMUNITY, and not COMPETITION, is going to have way way fewer stupid injuries.

injuries in submission grappling styles are mostly caused by people who "want to win". it is much better to wrestle with people who "want to play". these are totally different mindsets. the funny thing is: you learn FAR MORE, and FAR FASTER, when in the "want to play" mindset.

funny that.

FEEL the energy the guy is giving you in class. if he is constantly torquing your elbows, ROUGHLY applying neck cranks and heel hooks and stretching your spine out... DON'T wrestle with him. tell him plainly when he walks over to partner up "no. you fucked up my neck last time, and i simply don't need that crap" and when he wants to wrestle anyway, tell him that you don't think so. he may not like it. but then, do you need him to be your friend so badly that you don't mind him screwing your neck up for life because of his personal ego/image problems?

and when you DO wrestle with these locks, then TAP when he HAS YOU. don't make him crank your neck. if he gets the neck crank, freaking TAP. don't let your ego injure you, either, in other words.

and if your gym is full of that crap, leave it. go find another gym.

that's my take on it. a spirit of play is always better - and from every angle.

[cakegirl]

The most dangerous ones are, like OneDragons said, techniques that produce a small amount of pain until something snaps. Heel hooks are a prime example of this, as are "nutcracker" type moves - bicep slicers, calf slicers, etc, which don't hurt that much until your elbow or knee pops apart.

If you're being taught these techniques, hopefully it's at a school where the instructor explains the severity of the moves, and has everybody tap when they feel pressure, not when they feel pain.