Krav Maga vs. other arts

[EmptyneSs]

im just tired of seeing ma schools use kickboxing and ju jitsu as their main style but claim to be of another art. its like those hardstyle aikido guys who say their aikido is great, but really they are training mma and ju jitsu. dont u have enough respect for your training to actually aknowledge the art u are really learning. i can understand if mabye u arent aware, but every one of those chokes u mentioned were ju jitsu. also muay thai employs alot of padwork the way u described.

[SamuraiGuy]

"every one of those chokes u mentioned were ju jitsu." (You)


"Front Choke, Choke From Behind, Side Choke, Front Choke with a push, Back choke with a push" (me)

All those chokes... right well first I was referencing them as defending against them. Second I dont think those chokes are Ju Jutsu at all, probably closer to cave man. You dont have to know Ju Jutsu to put your hands around someones throat and squeeze. I didnt say something like a triangle choke, those are all basic chokes that anybody would know how to do.

I really doubt Ju Jutsu invented them.....

As for saying it sounds alot like Muay Thai because it uses alot of pad work.

Would you rather have us punching air and yelling KIYA!.... or just ditch the pads and hit each other in the face, anyone that uses pads must be copying Muay Thai... right.

Western boxers... they use headgear and padded gloves... instant Muay Thai ripoffs, wrestlers, oh they wear headgear, thats pads on their head... instant Muay thai rip off.

[xkirian]

As someone who's a Certified Instructor with Krav, a coach with Tony Blauer's PDR and SPEAR System, a coach with Rodney King's STWA, someone who's fought in the ring a few times who trains at Fairtex and Cesar Gracie’s multiple times a week and someone who has spent his career getting paid to protect people , I think I have a pretty good handle on Krav's applicability in MMA/the Ring and on the street.

You really are not comparing apples to apples here.

Krav is a reality based self-defense system, not a sport fighting method. The training drills, mindset and approach are completely geared toward achieving a high level of survivability in a street/ambush situation in a short amount of time.

Thai Boxing and BJJ are sport-fighting models that have a great adaptability to the street, much like Boxing. You train alive, you hit, you get hit, you submit, you get submitted, etc. But the sport/physical training model needs to go through a psychological and emotional filter in order for the average citizen to process it for the street. If you are a fighter, then you will "probably" do well in a street fight. The average citizen, LEO and Military Operator does not have the time or desire to dedicate to become proficient as a MMA fighter and then apply it to the street. Very different needs, missions and mindsets. Again, not apples to apples here...just different.

To answer the original question, if you want to fight MMA, train MMA not Krav. If you want to Thai Box, Thai Box don’t train Krav. There are elements of Muay Thai in Krav, elements of Boxing, elements of BJJ, elements of Savate, elements of Judo, etc, but it is none of those things, its a fighting system that takes those elements and applies them to a street methodology. If you want to be successful in MMA you must train for MMA. The UFC and Pride have proven this.

If you want to fight in the street... train to fight in the street, Lee Murray knocking out Tito Ortiz at the height of his game in London is just one example of a sport fighting world champion being taken out of his element on the street. Does that mean MMA doesn’t work on the street? Nope, Lee Murray trained MMA as well, but he also kicked a lot of ass on the street. Alex Gong (rest his soul) is another, he was was a great sport fighter and one of my coaches, but he still died in a street attack. Tell me that wasn’t a street fight????? Of course it was. Different problem, different approach.... different outcome.

Sport fighting and street fighting are very different things, that is not to say that Boxing, Thai or BJJ wont work in the street that would be untrue (a good fighter is a good fighter) that’s just not the model that your training.

The sport-training model is this; You want to fight, I want to fight..... there is awareness. You put your hands up I put my hands up...there is consent. You make a fight plan, I make a fight plan...there is preparedness. I cant kill you, you cant kill me....there are rules.

In the street, you don’t have these constraints or benifits..i.e., a real street attack is a sucker punch, an ambush, you may not be aware, you may not give consent, you may not be prepared and you may die, oh and by the way, there may be guns, knifes, pipes, more then one opponent to deal with, and your family (wives, children, etc) may be standing next to you at the time you are attacked or god forbid maybe there the ones getting attacked. In Krav and any good Reality-Based Self-Defense System this is what you train for.

Again, not better then BJJ, Boxing or Thai, just different....... different problem, different purpose, different training model.

I will say this.... from Kravist to Thai Boxer, BJJ'er to Boxer we can all benifit from Tony Blauers research into the psychology and physiology of the street fight.

Hope it helps,

Kirian

[EmptyneSs]

Originally Posted by xkirian

Sport fighting and street fighting are very different things, that is not to say that Boxing, Thai or BJJ wont work in the street that would be untrue (a good fighter is a good fighter) that’s just not the model that your training.

The sport-training model is this; You want to fight, I want to fight..... there is awareness. You put your hands up I put my hands up...there is consent. You make a fight plan, I make a fight plan...there is preparedness. I cant kill you, you cant kill me....there are rules.

In the street, you don’t have these constraints or benifits..i.e., a real street attack is a sucker punch, an ambush, you may not be aware, you may not give consent, you may not be prepared and you may die, oh and by the way, there may be guns, knifes, pipes, more then one opponent to deal with, and your family (wives, children, etc) may be standing next to you at the time you are attacked or god forbid maybe there the ones getting attacked. In Krav and any good Reality-Based Self-Defense System this is what you train for.

ju jitsu and muay thai arent sports. they are effective, devastating arts that have been time tested in battle for centuries. practicing them like a sport is just the most effective way to train in them. you make it sound as if people who practice an art as a sport will obey the rules of competition when in danger or out in the street. is this what u are saying? cause its absurd. trainig ma like its a sport is the most effective way to train because u can push yourself xtremely hard and still be relatively safe and there is lots of tough competition as well.

[Sensei Saki]

Are all ju jitsu and muay thai not sports?effective devastating arts that have been time tested in battle for centuries are effective devastating arts that have been time tested in battle for centuries .Is it the only one?
Yup.Yes I think this is what you are saying, but I'm not completely sure.Good reason.
I think you mean "it's" or "it is" not "its". Are you sure
absurd is?When is trainig ma like it not a sport is the most effective way to train because you can push yourself xtremely hard and still be relatively safe and there is lots of tough competition as well?

[SamuraiGuy]

XKirian seems to be alot more knowledgable about this than I am, and still you failed to see his point, he didnt discredit BJJ and Muay Thai as good ways to fight, that can help you in the street... he just said training in them may not give you the mindset that a completely self defense based system would give you.

Ill leave it up to him to try to convince you cause im sure he can do alot better job.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by xkirian

Alex Gong (rest his soul) is another, he was was a great sport fighter and one of my coaches, but he still died in a street attack. Tell me that wasn’t a street fight????? Of course it was. Different problem, different approach.... different outcome.

...very, very uncouth, and very, very uncool.
I don't care what you have to say, nobody, no matter what training or preperation they have can prevent or have any sort of defense in a situation like that.
It's true that, perhaps, if Mr. Gong had ceased his pursuit of the guy, the outcome would have been different...but...how could he have known?

and...you are right...it is a VERY different problem, the type of problem that no amount of "reality based" training is going to prevent.

Anybody, anyday is susceptible to a suprise...whether it be a sucker punch, or a bullet.

You may have the credentials...and I may be just a kid....but I HAVE to call this bullshit out into the open, simply because I find it INCREDIBLY disrespectful and outrageously distasteful, and in the same context as trying to plug Tony Blauer's system...why???!

Bad fucking form, man.

[gregimotis]

Originally Posted by Garland

...very, very uncouth, and very, very uncool.
I don't care what you have to say, nobody, no matter what training or preperation they have can prevent or have any sort of defense in a situation like that.
It's true that, perhaps, if Mr. Gong had ceased his pursuit of the guy, the outcome would have been different...but...how could he have known?

That he could not have known is, I think, the point. In the ring you know the parameters and prepare - on the 'street' you do not, therefore you prepare as best you can.

I'm not going to say that Gong should not have given chase - I'm frankly a little tired of everybody trotting out the old 'best self defense is to run away and live like coward' model - but while he may have taken the bravest course of action, it was not the safest.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

ju jitsu and muay thai arent sports. they are effective, devastating arts that have been time tested in battle for centuries. practicing them like a sport is just the most effective way to train in them. you make it sound as if people who practice an art as a sport will obey the rules of competition when in danger or out in the street. is this what u are saying? cause its absurd. trainig ma like its a sport is the most effective way to train because u can push yourself xtremely hard and still be relatively safe and there is lots of tough competition as well.

Ever heard the expression train like you want to fight, because you will fight like you train? If you train like a sport you think like a sport fighter. doubt it see this link. Glove weight for street fights?

Since you dont have to defend against illegal techniques in the ring , many mma people neglect training them at all since they view it as wasting thier training time. "if i cant use it in the ring i am not training it." streetfighters on the other hand concentrate on dirty tactics...its two different worlds with two different mindsets. if a mma fighter took his skills to instinct level and trained in illegal techniques they would automaticlly come out in the ring and he would be disqualified...this is bad. If a street fighter trains for the ring and acts on ring instinct in the street this is equally likely to turn out badly.

[xkirian]

Alright EmptyneSs lets look at your points.......

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

ju jitsu and muay thai arent sports.

Really?????? I guess I saw something else on ESPN last night then, my bad....

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

they are effective, devastating arts that have been time tested in battle for centuries. practicing them like a sport is just the most effective way to train in them.

For "sport", you are correct. Please explain where they are time tested in battle for centuries, Lots of BJJ going on during WWII???? Lots of Thai Boxing during WWI??? Or are you just repeating something somebody told you?

Show me case studies with wars being won hand to hand...without weapons, because that’s what you train in the sport model? Even the Thais have Krabi Kabong, not Muay Thai for battle. It may have elements of Thai Boxing in it, but it’s not Thai Boxing….hmmm I think I made a similar point about Krav Maga earlier????? But you obviously know better then I.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

you make it sound as if people who practice an art as a sport will obey the rules of competition when in danger or out in the street. is this what u are saying? cause its absurd.

Did you read my post, obviously not? I said nothing of the sort. All I said was being a Sport Fighter does not "automatically" equate to being able to fight on the street and vice, verse. I clearly said "If you’re a good fighter, you’re a good fighter", multiple times, did I not???? You would rather disagree with a point, then read the post.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

trainig ma like its a sport is the most effective way to train because u can push yourself xtremely hard and still be relatively safe and there is lots of tough competition as well.

......and you base this on what personal point of reference? To say it is the most "effective way" to train is an absolute, so please advise your research, knowledge, experience and pedigree to make such an absolute statement, because I did nothing of the sort. I train Thai, I train BJJ and I train more then that....what’s your point, are you saying that you only training the sport model is more "effective" then training the Sport and Street model???? Now that’s "absurd"!

Instead of disagreeing for disagreements sake, put your ego to the side and try to understand that cross training for the "Street" cant hurt....just like crosstraining for MMA.

It doesnt matter what your style is, Thai, BJJ, Boxing, etc, just add an element of crosstraining your skills for application during street encounters i.e., where multiple attackers, weapons, your awareness may not be optimal and the lack of rules do not apply. If you do this, then your system no matter what it is (BJJ or Krav) will work "for you".... "not against you" in the street. Is there a problem with that statement?

Again the answer to the original question is still dont train Krav for the ring/MMA.

Kirian

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by Garland

...very, very uncouth, and very, very uncool.
I don't care what you have to say, nobody, no matter what training or preperation they have can prevent or have any sort of defense in a situation like that.
It's true that, perhaps, if Mr. Gong had ceased his pursuit of the guy, the outcome would have been different...but...how could he have known?

and...you are right...it is a VERY different problem, the type of problem that no amount of "reality based" training is going to prevent.

Anybody, anyday is susceptible to a suprise...whether it be a sucker punch, or a bullet.

You may have the credentials...and I may be just a kid....but I HAVE to call this bullshit out into the open, simply because I find it INCREDIBLY disrespectful and outrageously distasteful, and in the same context as trying to plug Tony Blauer's system...why???!

Bad fucking form, man.

i disagree with you garland...big time. suprise, suprise.
reality based training should point out that getting into road rage incidents are likely to put you in the hospital and or morgue. when someone is acting like a nut, this is a clear indication they are dangerous. I learned early on...NEVER go down an alley, BECAUSE you know martial arts. often times we as ma forget common sense in that moment of glorious "man im gonna teach that knuckle head a lesson"..."he f###ed with the wrong guy this time".. this is often like a rednecks last words which are "Hey watch this."
learn from alex's lesson, bad guys dont play by the RULES, and in the real world they dont get DQed you get KIA.
As for promoting...like that never happens on here even if he was (which it didnt sound like to me), is pointing out good reference material considered promoting? sometimes people dont like to face facts because it might make them rethink thier lifestyle/training. true anyone from any style/lifestyle could be killed in this way, however i doubt it would have happened to Massad Ayoob.

[xkirian]

Ok your turn Garland....

Originally Posted by Garland

...very, very uncouth, and very, very uncool.

....and you give your etiquette classes where and when??? Did you know Alex, Did you train with Alex, Did you share blood sweat and tears with the man???? No, well I did and my statement still stands.. I knew Alex, trained with Alex and loved Alex like a brother, so offer your opinion of my manners to the tourists, because I live here.

Originally Posted by Garland

I don't care what you have to say, nobody, no matter what training or preperation they have can prevent or have any sort of defense in a situation like that..

Really...So LEO, Military and professional warriors’ don’t deal with Armed encounters on a daily basis??? Huh, I guess I had it all wrong. Oh and by the way you know what about the situation again??? Because you were there the day it happened? No...oh that’s right I was and Alex could have handled things much differently and would most assuredly be here today. You miss the point completly.

Originally Posted by Garland

It's true that, perhaps, if Mr. Gong had ceased his pursuit of the guy, the outcome would have been different...but...how could he have known?..

I am very very confident in saying that if Alex did not pursue that he would have survived the encounter, because there would not have been an encounter, genius. "How could we have known??????" Priceless.

Originally Posted by Garland

and...you are right...it is a VERY different problem, the type of problem that no amount of "reality based" training is going to prevent.?

Again, absolute statements, so no one ever survives armed encounters??? I don’t even need to dignify that response do I. People survive these types of attacks every single day.

Originally Posted by Garland

Anybody, anyday is susceptible to a suprise...whether it be a sucker punch, or a bullet.

My point exactely, so why not train for it????Who's it going to hurt, but who does it hurt by not doing it?

Originally Posted by Garland

You may have the credentials...and I may be just a kid....but I HAVE to call this bullshit out into the open.

No you don’t, you just want to.

You make my case...right here in this last sentence better then I could ever... I have credentials and a personal point of reference to the situation, you are just a kid spouting off on the internet...I live in reality you talk in virtual reality......To call bullshit you would need to have something to say that adds to the discussion you do not.

Originally Posted by Garland

simply because I find it INCREDIBLY disrespectful and outrageously distasteful, and in the same context as trying to plug Tony Blauer's system...why???!.

What I find disrespectful and distasteful is that you feel the need argue the points of Alex's death with out knowing one bit about the man or the situation. If we cant learn from Alex's death...then it was senseless and ment nothing. Alex would want more then that...but if you knew him you would already know that.

I did reference Blauers research and I stand by that as well, I'm sure you know as much about that topic as you do about Alex...so I'm sure we will all get another round of absolutes from someone who knows "absolutely" nothing about the subject.

Originally Posted by Garland

Bad fucking form, man.

Finally we agree on something........

Kirian

[EmptyneSs]

Originally Posted by xkirian

For "sport", you are correct. Please explain where they are time tested in battle for centuries, Lots of BJJ going on during WWII???? Lots of Thai Boxing during WWI??? Or are you just repeating something somebody told you?

ju jitsu and muay thai have been around much longer than ww1 and 2. the thais have used muay thai in battle for centuries to defend their villages, and it dates back to over 4000 years. and ju jitsu, was used for war as well dating back over 2000 years.

Originally Posted by xkirian

Show me case studies with wars being won hand to hand...without weapons, because that’s what you train in the sport model? Even the Thais have Krabi Kabong, not Muay Thai for battle. It may have elements of Thai Boxing in it, but it’s not Thai Boxing….hmmm I think I made a similar point about Krav Maga earlier????? But you obviously know better then I.

read about the history of thailand and muay thai, as well as ju jitsu. u will find out that both arts were used for hand to hand combat when it came down to wars. sure they had weapons on the battle field, but they also had hand to hand combat techniques for when they lost their weapon.

Originally Posted by xkirian

Did you read my post, obviously not? I said nothing of the sort. All I said was being a Sport Fighter does not "automatically" equate to being able to fight on the street and vice, verse. I clearly said "If you’re a good fighter, you’re a good fighter", multiple times, did I not???? You would rather disagree with a point, then read the post.

a sport fighter would a have a better change of being able to fight well in a situation on the street more so than most people. and has been under pressure many times vs resisting oponents and he will probobly be able to keep his coo and his head clearl better than most people would, which is one of the most important things.

Originally Posted by xkirian

......and you base this on what personal point of reference? To say it is the most "effective way" to train is an absolute, so please advise your research, knowledge, experience and pedigree to make such an absolute statement, because I did nothing of the sort. I train Thai, I train BJJ and I train more then that....what’s your point, are you saying that you only training the sport model is more "effective" then training the Sport and Street model???? Now that’s "absurd"!

Instead of disagreeing for disagreements sake, put your ego to the side and try to understand that cross training for the "Street" cant hurt....just like crosstraining for MMA.

It doesnt matter what your style is, Thai, BJJ, Boxing, etc, just add an element of crosstraining your skills for application during street encounters i.e., where multiple attackers, weapons, your awareness may not be optimal and the lack of rules do not apply. If you do this, then your system no matter what it is (BJJ or Krav) will work "for you".... "not against you" in the street. Is there a problem with that statement?

again, u seem to think just cause an art has a "sport" component, that all its fighters will stick to competition rules when in a real situation and that those people wont have the same mentality. also, i dont know if u know this, but many people train in ju jitsu and muay thai for self defense, not for competition. sure some people wanna go to k1, or do mma, but most people wanna learn to protect themselves and again muay thai and bjj are great for this. u dont think these arts isntill a certain mind frame of aweareness and self defense on their practitioners, especially ones who train in them soley for self defense?

[xkirian]

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

ju jitsu and muay thai have been around much longer than ww1 and 2. the thais have used muay thai in battle for centuries to defend their villages, and it dates back to over 4000 years. and ju jitsu, was used for war as well dating back over 2000 years.

From the dawn of man, somebody picked up a rock and weapons were born thus throwing the rules out the window. Also, BJJ was not used for war dating back 2000 years. Again people have wrestled a grappled since the dawn of man. Evolution is key.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

ead about the history of thailand and muay thai, as well as ju jitsu. u will find out that both arts were used for hand to hand combat when it came down to wars. sure they had weapons on the battle field, but they also had hand to hand combat techniques for when they lost their weapon.

Don’t need to read about it, I've been to and trained in Thailand, been to and trained in Brazil and I've been to and trained in Japan, lots of reading about and spouting about subjects vs. doing them here on this thread, gotta love the Internet. To clarify, no one has ever or currently relies on hand-to-hand combat to win "wars" it has always been an element of. From Praetorian Guard to Navy SEAL. Why don’t Navy SEALS get black belts in BJJ or fight completive Thai Boxing???? Because they don’t have the time and they dont need to.... they have guns and bombs . Take 30 Samurai and 30 Navy SEALS, let the Samurai use there tools and skills and then let the SEALS use there tools and skills, the war was over long ago and the Samurai would be dead long before they got to there swords...Again Evolution in Combat. Same principles here, we could have stuck with the swords (traditional training methods) or we can pick up these shiny gun "thingy’s" and move on (modern training methods).

Take those same Navy Seals (unarmed) and put them in the ring with guys with MMA training and the SEALS are screwed. Let the SEALS bring their weapons to the party and the party is over. Again, different mission, different purpose, different training methods.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

a sport fighter would a have a better change of being able to fight well in a situation on the street more so than most people. and has been under pressure many times vs resisting oponents and he will probobly be able to keep his coo and his head clearl better than most people would, which is one of the most important things.

Again, did you read my 1st post??? Because I said the exact same things, so your disagreeing for the sake of what again???? Just because you have a better chance at doing something doesn’t mean you'll do it.

So why not cross train your skills, as someone said earlier you will do as you train. If your a MMA guy go outside and train on the concrete vs. a mat, grapple with multiple opponents at the same time, introduce mock/ marking weapons into your scenarios (Paint knives, Simunitions, padded assailant drills for contact and impact management, etc), train in the dark, etc. Take your sport fighting skills and run them through a street filter that’s all. Your survivability will increase just by doing this. Again, no one is asking you to do anything else above and beyond what you already do, just add an additional training component. To use your analogy people would still be trying to fight with Tiger Claw Kung Fu in the UFC, the sport evolved because there were better and more effective ways to fight for the venue and event. The same applies to the street take those MMA skills and evolve them for the street, say you don’t need to evolve, good on you then? What ever works for you.

You dont need to do any other system if you like BJJ, Thai Boxing, etc, just train it in the scenario you may have to apply it, for the cage, the mat AND the street. What is so wrong with this concept????? Accept no matter how great you are or how much you know you can always get better at something, always be a student.... everybody wants to be the master.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

again, u seem to think just cause an art has a "sport" component, that all its fighters will stick to competition rules when in a real situation and that those people wont have the same mentality.

No, AGAIN, you haven’t read my post, because I never said that either. Punching someone is the groin is very different from grappling with a knife wielding assailant.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

also, i dont know if u know this, but many people train in ju jitsu and muay thai for self defense, not for competition. .

Gee....as a DT instructor, I had know idea....you know what somebody should open up a school then and charge a monthly fee for the service, man your on to something there.....

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

sure some people wanna go to k1, or do mma, but most people wanna learn to protect themselves and again muay thai and bjj are great for this. .

Yes they are...... if trained with a street mentality. That’s all I'm saying. If you don’t want to agree....then walk into your nearest Hells Angels chapter today and call them all fags and sport fight your way out of it....get back to us on that and let us know how that goes for you OK? I'm sure your MMA dominance will clear the room.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

u dont think these arts isntill a certain mind frame of aweareness and self defense on their practitioners, especially ones who train in them soley for self defense?

I see a running theme here, you not reading or maybe now I get it "understanding" my post. Never said that, what I said was training Krav for MMA was a bad idea and training something (whatever your style) for street defense in solely a sport model may not be the most efficient manner for the mission or the most effective use of the skills your learning…you can do both you know, train for the street and competition…Man what a novel idea.

Kirian

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by xkirian

Take those same Navy Seals (unarmed) and put them in the ring with guys with MMA training and the SEALS are screwed. Let the SEALS bring their weapons to the party and the party is over. Again, different mission, different purpose, different training methods.

I was with you for awhile there buddy, if you are infact a DT trainer, you oughta know better...one more time for the slow people, ITS NOT ABOUT THE ART, ITS ABOUT THE MAN. I have yet to meet a (real) operator from ANY branch of the service who was not a WARRIOR. Most mma people are not warriors they are hobbiest or enthusiest of a SPORT. Army Special Forces, Air Force Air Commando's, Marine Force Recon and yes Navy Seals are Professional warriors. Pro MMa people are professional atheletes. I will bet on the warrior everytime. Surely you are not insinuating that seals are nothing without thier guns?