fake martial arts and fraud teachers

Hey, I've actually been on this forum for alittle while but I am usually soft spoken unless I have something to say. I didn't know which section to post this in so I figured this one is as good as any. I would like to talk about a disturbing trend I see going on within the martial arts community. Now, this may be alittle controversial but when you think about it, it's neccessary to bring up within the community.
To start with, any true martial artist understands that any martial art is made up of a set of predefined movements, philosophies, strategies, etc., which acts as that particular martial art's DNA. So anybody claiming to teach "Native American Kenpo" or "Brazilian Ju Jutsu", or whatever, they are frauds. Just because someone takes an Asian style and changes a few slight, barely noticeable aspects and claims it as their own doesn't make it original. It is culture identity theft! Brazilian Ju Jutsu doesn't differ that wildly from Japanese Ju Jutsu, it's popular because of this trend about studying non-Asian martial arts (though the Gracies are awesome fighters, but still bjj is a fraud nonetheless). And I think that it's good for people to aspire to get the word out that MA aren't purely an asian thing, and that all cultures have martial arts. Bring all cultures forward like Bruce Lee did with Asia.
But that doesn't make it ok for people to steal a martial art and call it their own... Chief Adrian Roman is a fraud and it's already gotten out of the bag. In fact if I'm not mistaken he's not even Native American! Anything ending in Jutsu, Do, or Ryu is Asian. Anything that is a style of "karate" or "kenpo" (which is a style of karate itself), or "ju jutsu", or whatever, reguardless if they put "Norwegian" or "Somolian" or "Canadian" in front of it, IT'S ASIAN! Ju Jutsu is Ju Jutsu, Karate is karate, period. It originated from Japan.
The only exception here I can think of is wrestling, as styles of wrestling differ from one style to the next enough to make a clear distinction. Maybe because wrestling is a general martial art, probably the oldest general form alive. There are different forms within kung-fu and silat, but they also all share some common principals that define them as kung fu or silat. The same goes for karate to a lesser extent.
Real non-Asian martial arts are like capoeira, krav maga, arte del abbracciare, lua, savate, nubian wrestling, laganza (Native American, Apache to be more specific). Those are examples, they are home grown, they were built from the ground up without stealing to take a short cut. But this is just my input.

Snake

[LoneHusky]

BJJ isn't a fraud. I'll talk to you later Mr.

[mixwell]

snake did you research any of what you are talking about ? Did you know that traditional Jap ju jutsu was more about small joint locks and throws and actually doesn't really involve any ground fighting ? Yes while BJJ was derived from the Jap ju jutsu, the whole ground fighting was pretty much created from there.. There is very little Japanese ju jutsu that is still used in BJJ today so I don't know what your talking about.. You probly read that the gracies were taught traditional jap ju jutsu and then modified it.. Here I found an article on it so you can educate yourself before sticking your foot in your mouth again..

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How does Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu differ from Japanese Jujutsu and why are they spelled differently?

While Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu traces its origins to Japanese Jujutsu, many modifications to its techniques and training methods have made it distinctly different from its parent. Traditional Japanese Jujutsu was a collection of martial arts and involved the use of empty-hand techniques as well as weaponry. Jujutsu was developed and used by the Japanese Samurai warriors in battle. If a Samurai lost his weapon, he had to be able to defend himself with his bare hands.

Traditional Jujutsu does not emphasize "ground fighting." Fighting on the ground in the middle of a battlefield, surrounded by armed enemy soldiers was not the best option for a Samurai. In addition, Samurai would more often than not be dressed in cumbersome and restrictive armor. Grappling on the ground in armor was very difficult and was not a desirable situation to be in during battle. The Samurai's goal was to recover his weapon as quickly as possible so that he would be equipped to battle other armed opponents.

In most traditional styles of Jujutsu, you will find very little, if any, ground fighting. More often, you will find standing throws, takedowns and joint locks, whereby the opponent is immobilized immediately upon being thrown to the floor. In ancient times, it was rarely necessary to continue to fight on the ground. The grounded opponent, virtually immobilized by the weight of his own armor, could easily be finished with a swift thrust from a knife or sword. On today's streets, you are unlikely to find an opponent wearing armor or brandishing a sword. An uncooperative opponent who is much stronger, larger and heavier, and who is resisting you 100% is not easy to control or subdue. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu assumes that your opponent will be far more powerful than you; and unlike traditional Japanese Jujutsu, it recognizes that once the opponent falls to the ground, the fight has just begun.

Modern Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu's training methods are also very different from those of traditional Japanese Jujutsu. Many traditional styles of Jujutsu did not practice their techniques in randori (free sparring) fashion. Traditional Jujutsu was taught almost entirely by kata (choreographed sequences whereby two partners follow a pattern of movements without resisting each other). As a result, many traditional stylists never learned to apply their techniques against a resisting opponent. By contrast, randori is the primary training method of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners. Students are first taught specific techniques, which are then refined through repetition and drills. When the student has perfected the techniques against an unresisting partner, he then tries to apply them on a partner who is resisting 100%. Sparring is the only method of training which can accustom the student to the unpredictable nature of real combat.

Finally, traditional Jujutsu did not offer its practitioners an overall strategy for approaching combat. Rather than offering any guiding principles, traditional Jujutsu was simply an accumulation of techniques based on leverage and the efficient use of one's body to defeat an assailant. It did not offer a guide for how practitioners should behave throughout the course of a fight. However, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu employs techniques within the framework of an overall given strategy.
Throughout all stages of the fight, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu stylists use techniques that actively help implement their fight strategy. Which techniques are used depends largely on the situation. In general, all Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu stylists fight in the same manner; to that extent, they are highly predictable. Different fighters will favor certain techniques over others, but despite these minor differences, the underlying strategy of all Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners remains constant: bring the opponent to the ground and establish a dominant position in order to finish the fight.

Brazilians refer to Jujutsu as "Jiu-Jitsu" because the Gracie family adopted the spelling of Jiu-Jitsu. "Jujutsu" is actually the correct spelling and is translated from Japanese as the "gentle discipline." Ironically, the term "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" does not even exist in Brazil. Brazilians simply refer to it as "Jiu-Jitsu". It was the Americans who later added the "Brazilian" to "Jiu-Jitsu" to distinguish it from its Japanese counterpart.

Ok... You might be right about Brazilian Jui Jutsu to an extent, but it's still atleast half-way jujutsu... Why not just make up a new name? I mean, if it's so different. I agree bjj does use ground techniques, but it's still half way japanese ju jutsu. They still use the same anatomy and the same pressure points. They still use the same standing techniques to take an opponent down. I agree though, the ground attacks are a nice addition. In that way I can say that bjj is probably better for a street fight type self defense situation, but in a war situation your not gonna wanna fight a man on the ground. I guess it depends on the situation. I'm so used to seeing fakes that I may have been blinded to this because the use the word ju juitsu in their name. And that is a common trend amoung so many "Great Teachers".
But look at (just using an example) Chief Adrian Roman. He's already been exposed as a fraud, yet people are still promoting his false "martial art". But he's already been exposed though. All he did was take.. I believe it was ju jutsu or kenpo if I remember correctly, and fit it with some Native American trappings. If he were a real Native American martial artist (or even a real Native American for that matter, if what I've been hearing is correct) he would atleast have access to a real Native American fighting system, and not just reinventing something that the Japanese came up with. If it were different, then why not call it something new?

Snake

[BadgerFu57]

Native American fighting = bows, arrows, spears, and horsies.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu isn't a fraud, it's just a different take on Judo, which is a different take on Japanese Jiu-Jitsu.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by mixwell

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu assumes that your opponent will be far more powerful than you; and unlike traditional Japanese Jujutsu, it recognizes that once the opponent falls to the ground, the fight has just begun.

I know this is poste dform an article but it is not quite true. First, BJJ is a variation of Judo (or Kano Jujutsu) not the traditional styles of jujutsu most would be familiar Fusen Ryu was a style of JJ that was all ground. BJJ doesn't just assume that fiunght will happen on the ground the philosophy is to take teh fight to teh ground and end there. In JJ or judo the assumption is that when a person hits the ground the fight will most likley be over, but if not it just doesn't stop.

Carlos and Helio did a lot for JJ but people have to stop giving them false credit. There are very few if any techniques that were created by the Gracies. The advances of JJJ was made by Kano, Vale Tudo (speculation), the guard, randori etc were all concepts of Kano. This is the part I understand were Snake 137 has a problem with others not giving credit and respect were due. "Brasilian" JJ may not be stated like that but it is understood that there is no other JJ. I remember when Renzo first opened his school in NYC and asked if I studied JJ, I said yes told him the style, he said that din't count did you study and BJJ. I was pissed but that was a while ago and I may go to his school now.

Now regarding the fruads this chief Adrian Roman is obviously a fruad he advertising learning kenpo online he will send you a BB and papers for like $1000 dollars that is a fraud. The Gracies are not frauds (though there have been some lies). I agree I do not like seeing "American" Karate If I am an American and I teach a Brasilian style or a vietnamise style is not american though it may be less tradional, but it does not necessarily make them fruads (I think there was a long thread about this a while ago I will try to find it)

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by mixwell

...Did you know that traditional Jap ju jutsu was more about small joint locks and throws and actually doesn't really involve any ground fighting ? Yes while BJJ was derived from the Jap ju jutsu, the whole ground fighting was pretty much created from there.. There is very little Japanese ju jutsu that is still used in BJJ today so I don't know what your talking about.. .....



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How does Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu differ from Japanese Jujutsu and why are they spelled differently?

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,.................

Smells like portuguese cooking to me...


BJJ came from Judo, Judo came from Ju-Jutsu. BJJ is Judo newaza, (ground fighting)

They call it Jiu Jitsu because the great Ju-jutsu master that taught the Gracie's was really a Judoka that was kicked out of the Kodokan...

PS. "Jap" is derrogatory slang. Take the time to spell the word or I'll report the post.

Thanks!

[mixwell]

Im just curious but what MA or person thought of the concept of the guard ? Who came up with that idea ? I know judo uses the guard. does traditional japanese ju jutsu ?

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by mixwell

Im just curious but what MA or person thought of the concept of the guard ? Who came up with that idea ? I know judo uses the guard. does traditional japanese ju jutsu ?

See Kosen Judo...

Japanese:

"mount" = tateshihogatame
"back mount" = ushirogatame
"side mount" or "cross-side" = yokoshihogatame
"North/South" or "69" = kamishihogatame
"guard" = dojime
"open guard" = choza or ashigarami
"half guard" = ashigarami
"passing the guard" = hairigata
"scissor sweep" = hasamigaeshi or kanibasami
"knee-on-the-belly" = ukigatame
"Americana" = udegarami
"Kimura" = udegarami
"guillotine" = mae hadakajime
"mata leão" = ushiro hadakajime
"cross choke" = jujijime
"triangle" = sankakujime or sankakugatame

[IPON]

Originally Posted by Tant01

the great Ju-jutsu master that taught the Gracie's was really a Judoka that was kicked out of the Kodokan...

Tanto my understandingis completely different. Maeda was sent by Kano to expand the awareness of Judo and prove its effectiveness which is the reason (ultimately) he went to Brasil (though there were many stops prior)

[mixwell]

ko0 thanks for the info. I wasn't referring to "Jap" to be offensive i just made it short which isn't violating anything on this message board. same as if i say xmas instead of christmas... Please don't sweat the small shiz.

[Tant01]

That may be the case but I have read two versions of why he was booted from the ranks of the Kodokan. One was for fighting the other for promoting students to dan rank without permission from the Kodokan.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by mixwell

ko0 thanks for the info. I wasn't referring to "Jap" to be offensive i just made it short which isn't violating anything on this message board. ....

I figured as much.

[IPON]

Tanto - I diodn't know that if you have any to those article please post when you have an chance

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by IPON

Tanto - I diodn't know that if you have any to those article please post when you have an chance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda



Enjoy. I'll search for the other one later...