fake martial arts and fraud teachers

[1bad65]

I've never studied JJJ so I have no clue about their belt sytem, or lack thereof. The guy was a JJJ guy, he told people that. I wish I remembered what Japanese words his gi had on it. He also wore a green belt. I have no idea what level that signifies, but he did enter the white belt division of the tourny I was at.

So I was correct then.... Because I know I seen some little japanese judoka dude take a man to the ground before on tv, and made him tap with a nerve hold... Although I can't remember where I seen it. So just my question here, what exactly is the difference between kodokan ju jutsu and bjj?
It seems to me that all this renaming and rerooting of martial arts from japan and china is just blurring the line, and in fact makes it harder to learn about *real* non-asian arts. And if they were legitimately different martial arts, why not make up their own names?
As for "don't believe what you seen on tv" about Bruce Lee... Well it isn't just tv that's made this refference. Granted nobody directly said that Bruce and his son Brandon were killed by the triads, but you can logically assume so. Because there WAS alot of controversy in China and throughout Asia when Lee took the MA to the west and the rest of the world. Remember, Bruce Lee was poisoned with a pill, Brandon was practicing for the Crow when someone slipped a real bullet in the gun to have him killed. And nobody was ever caught for either of them. So it makes since that the triads, or someone influential throughout china, got pissed.
And this is why, because when Lee took the MA out of their culture everybody was robbing their martial arts... I'm not condoning the murder of the Lees but this does explain things. Look at it, "native american kenpo", "German kung fu", etc. I think people have gotten too gung ho on this non-Asian martial arts trend going around and instead of digging to find them, they figured it would be easier to steal japanese and chinese styles and rename them. The white man has a hostory of doing this, not just in martial arts but in other things too (mind you I am german and irish bred and I'm saying this). To truly bring *real* non-asian styles from around the world into the light, and re-establish MA as an inclusive thing, it would take someone who is into martial arts, and working for, lets say, national geographics as an anthropologist. Because many of those arts are deeply rooted and reserved into their native cultures.
However, obviously they have no major qualms about them getting out if done right, because anthroplogists often experience those arts when they visit a given country. Sometimes they are even trained in them, even though they are an outsider. Most likely they fear the same thing happening to their arts as what has happened to those of japan and china. Could you imagine "Mexican nubian wrestling", "Canadian Krav Maga"... "Sudanese savate"... I mean, those martial arts, in many cultures, are taken as a personal part of their culture. And their obviously timid to some degree to share them with the rest of the world. If they wanna base a new style off one of them, fine, as long as it has it's own destinctive characteristics that seperate it from it's parent form and is visibly different to the naked eye, and they don't steal the parent art's name.

[1bad65]

Like I said before, the main difference is GROUND WORK. JJJ has joint locks and chokes like BJJ, they are similar in that respect. They are different in that BJJ likes to do them on the ground, the idea being that it is easier for a small man to control a larger one on the ground than standing up. Plus it is easier to utilize your whole body to attack one limb or joint when on the ground compared to standing up.
You could also go observe a BJJ class and a JJJ class and see the difference too.

Yeah, but kodokan jj also utilizes ground attacks does it not? I read that site where they went through the history of ju jutsu and Kano, a japanese man injapan, introduced kodokan ju jutsu, and they used ground attacks. One of his students I believe, started teaching the Gracie's, who in turn called it Brazilian Jui Jutsu. Still though, what would be the main difference between *kodokan* ju jutsu and Brazilian Jui Jutsu? I'm really curious about this.

This is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo
My question is how does Brazilian Jui Jutsu differ from kodokan ju jutsu, not fusen ryu. So, how do kodokan jj and bjj differ?
I'm honestly keeping an open mind and trying to learn more about this. But I will ask also, if there is a significant difference then why does bjj call itself jui jutsu, why not adopt a more unique name?

If I can find classes for both bjj and jjj in my area I will go observe them. But I don't think to highly of the McDojo's because theyr usually not legally allowed to teach the arts in their true forms. They hafta water them down and commercialize them so students don't go around wrecklessly hurting, injuring, or killing people. The only places to learn real martial arts are either in the military/law enforcement, through underground private instructors (which are usually illegal) or over-seas. The best you could learn at a McDojo is something like kickboxing, which can be effective but it doesn't focus on any pressure points or advanced anatomy.

[Armadon]

Originally Posted by Snake137

If I can find classes for both bjj and jjj in my area I will go observe them. But I don't think to highly of the McDojo's because theyr usually not legally allowed to teach the arts in their true forms. They hafta water them down and commercialize them so students don't go around wrecklessly hurting, injuring, or killing people. The only places to learn real martial arts are either in the military/law enforcement, through underground private instructors (which are usually illegal) or over-seas. The best you could learn at a McDojo is something like kickboxing, which can be effective but it doesn't focus on any pressure points or advanced anatomy.

Huh? I'm pretty sure I'm learning how to snap arms, legs and the like in my class. Why would you assume it's illegal to teach MA?

[1bad65]

Snake, where do you live?

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Like I said before, the main difference is GROUND WORK. JJJ has joint locks and chokes like BJJ, they are similar in that respect. They are different in that BJJ likes to do them on the ground, the idea being that it is easier for a small man to control a larger one on the ground than standing up. Plus it is easier to utilize your whole body to attack one limb or joint when on the ground compared to standing up.
You could also go observe a BJJ class and a JJJ class and see the difference too.

Ground work is different how?

The theory of gravity is holding you down so your mobility is restricted now belongs to BJJ? Good grief man! Why do you suppose a Judo guy wants to slam you there in the first place? Amazingly enough some throws land your opponent in a nice arm bar, imagine that? Kano figured that out and incorporated a great deal of "GROUND WORK" in his JUDO back in 1886!
The Kodokan is a school of learning the way (JUDO) but it has all the same techniques that Kano devised from earlier forms of the gentle art (ju-jutsu)
Lets take a look at the break down of Ju-Jutsu techniques, eh?
They are broken down into four groups of techniques.

1. Nage-waza (throwing techniques)
2. Katame-waza (locking techniques)
3. Atemi-waza (striking techniques)
4. Kansetsu-waza (joint techniques)

The method of practise traditionally used to ensure the safety of dangerous techniques was the kata system of practise. In ancient bujutsu, 99% of practise was completed by kata alone. That is to say, in order to cope with an opponent's unlimited attacks, each response was practised by means of kata. That is the reason for the extreme number of kata in ancient jujutsu. For example in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu jujutsu there were 124 kata techniques, and there were over 10 ranho (literally unstructured captures). To become masterful in the practical applications of the techniques required innumerable months. Then someone would be challenged to go from kata to a violent shiai (literally street fight ) called tsujinage or tsujigiri. This gave life to kata and was the place to try to fit together objectively one's own real ability.

Kenji Tomiki


So the DIFFERENCE is not in technique or the lack of them, it is also NOT in the POSITIONS of combat. It is in fact in the training methods of Randori...

In judo all the atemi waza is restricted to kata, I expect a traditional JJJ dojo would give you some of that in addition to throwing and locking...

Say "NEWAZA"


Come on! Say it!

The term ne-waza (mat work) is sometimes used in place of katame-waza, but it is misleading in that not all katame-waza are executed while lying on the mat. Some stragleholds and joint locks, for example, can be applied from a standing position.

Ju-Jutsu terminology a bit too difficult for you? It is a Japanese art after all...


Newaza; [Judo] groundwork or grappling techniques

Newaza; [Judo] The range of techniques carried out on the floor (Ne). These consist of immobilizations (Osae-waza, often called hold-downs), locking or bending the joints (Kansetsu-waza), and strangulation and choking techniques (Shime-waza).

(neh wa'za) "ground techniques," "groundwork," or "grappling techniques"

Newaza; The collective name for judo techniques performed while fighters are on the ground. Often referred to as matwork or holddowns.

Newaza; groundwork, mat techniques...

NEWAZA; A term that means those techniques which are performed on the floor, usually called groundwork techniques. In Judo and Jujutsu, ground techniques include strangulations, immobilizations and armlocks.



Have I made myself clear now? Thank you for reading!

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Snake137

If I can find classes for both bjj and jjj in my area I will go observe them. But I don't think to highly of the McDojo's because theyr usually not legally allowed to teach the arts in their true forms. They hafta water them down and commercialize them so students don't go around wrecklessly hurting, injuring, or killing people. The only places to learn real martial arts are either in the military/law enforcement, through underground private instructors (which are usually illegal) or over-seas. The best you could learn at a McDojo is something like kickboxing, which can be effective but it doesn't focus on any pressure points or advanced anatomy.

What a bunch of phui!

Whoever told you that needs to be thrown on the deck and choked unconscious!

Judo is a real martial art but you don't need to take MY word for it...


http://www.judoinfo.com/menu.htm


Go read!

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Snake137

This is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo
.....?

Yeah, you're welcome.... by the way.

I never said judo wasn't a real martial art, but they will unlikely teach real judo in a McDojo (ie commercial dojo here in the US). They'll teach a compromised form of judo that is useless in self defense. Atleast that's what I've seen. *Real* judo is quite effective from what I've seen. You can say the same about karate and tae kwon do, those are probably the most common arts being taught out here at these McDojo's... Learning kickboxing at one of them is fine though because kickboxing doesn't utilize and nerve holds, pressure points, grapples, or takedowns anyhow.
I live in NC, which is a pretty pu$$y state really. All I've ever learned from dojo's out here is how to get your @$$ kicked swiftly. All my kickboxing and wrestling I learned from friends and my brother, street fighting and pressure points I learned from a Marine Force Recon, and alittle from my grampa before he died (he was a green berrett). Over-all real-time strategy and mental speed I further learned from being homeless on the street in a rough neighborhood.

Thanx tant0

[HtTKar]

All arts started somewhere, probably India and spread across the world. It is fair to say that there is not much difference between similar arts now, but what will happen to their evolution across the next hundred years? Changing the name enables them to add techniques and change corriculum as they see fit. If they were stuck having to learn for example Shorin Ryu, and not change its name to kickboxing, would they be allowed to add techniques or change corriculum as they saw fit? No! They would have to teach exactly as they were taught. All the Katas, everything that art contains.

You say karate is a japanese art, but even karate itself is many different arts, all slightly changed by one person that saw how they could make the art "Better". Its just a delivery method. You say that they are frauds. But what would be worse, changing the name as has been done, or changing the art and calling it the same name? Many arts evolve, thats what happens, and thats what keeps people interested.

On another note: Some people learned martial arts for survival, because they were occupied by another country. They picked up on the art from the people that took their country over, and learned how to use that to their advantage. It was a thing of pride to name it after their country. Can you see why they would not want to associate their fighting techniques with the name of their occupying country?

[Hardball]

There is an entire website devoted to fraud in the martial arts. It is
www.bullshido.net or www.bullshido.com