fake martial arts and fraud teachers

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Hardball

There is an entire website devoted to fraud in the martial arts. It is
www.bullshido.net or www.bullshido.com

They have good intentions....


It a good place to start filtering out the hocus-pocus.


That might be a good place for the Bruce Lee and Brandon being whacked by triads thing!


For sure! LOL

[OmaPlata]

<> I never said they couldn't fight

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dude, I never once said a bbj fighter couldn't fight. I even said that the Gracies were awesome fighters. So don't be dumb. What I said was "Brazilian" ju jutsu is just ju jutsu, they stole it from japan, made a few basrely noticeable changes,


-yea barley noticeable things like take downs and leg locks. It wasnt stolen dummy, it was taught to Carlos sr., who taught Helio, who mastered the art. No one else taught it in Brazil, or anywhere. The Gracies are Brazilian Jiu Jitsu ANybody that teaches Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, learned it from the Gracies somewhere down the line : http://bjj.org/lineage.html

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Yup, those Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys are all frauds. Just for laughs go to the nearest BJJ academy and tell the instructor that, better yet, interrupt a class and do it in front of everyone. Don't worry, after all it's just a room full of frauds right?

LMAO, just go up to any blue belt, let alone the instructor lol

Yeah they learned it from the japanese in a style of ju jutsu called *kodokan* ju jutsu, which was started by kano. Obviously you haven't researched it yourselves. So now who'se the dummy?
Dude, I've seen a japanese dude take someone down with kodokan ju jutsu. Kodokan ju jutsu was bjj before bjj. There were more than one style of jjj you know. I know bjj is popular because so many people are desperate to further this current trend going on, but that doesn't justify taking someone else's art and repossessing it. Ju Jutsu started as a samurai art for warfare purposes, later becoming the prefered martial art of outlaws throughout ancient japan. As time went on it evolved into kodokan jj for tournament purposes. A kodokan jj master in the 20th century taught it in Brazil, and the Brazilians claimedit as their own. That doesn't make it a Brazilian martial art.

[DVSJ]

Has it occurred to you that perhaps a Japanese,American,Filipino,etc. could have killed them...also it could have been done out of jealousy...we'll never know..?Back to the topic...I get your point clearly.I somewhat agree & disagree...I don't believe the intentions are to steal and/or rename it with their nationality before the style name i.e.Brazillian Jujitsu,American Kenpo,etc. It just so happend that an American,Brazillian,etc. had studied the art,made modifications that seemed fit and renamed it slightly.It's not like their not giving any credit to the originators (in my humble opinion)...thence they kept the name of the original style albeit nationality before the styles name.Also,I haven't seen or heard of any factual statements, statistics,etc. on one martial arts practitioners takin on another MA's students to claim which art is best (it's all matter of opinion).You may get 20 American Kenpo students lose to 20 traditional Kenpo stylists...then comes along an individual American Kenpo practioner that defeats them all in competition...who's to say which style's best..?So,were all proud of the art(s) we practice...clearly,it's the individual that makes the difference...

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

LMAO, just go up to any blue belt, let alone the instructor lol

Blue belts are okay but if you really want to grapple step up to a brown or blackbelt!

Now that's going to hurt for a while!


I wouldn't underestimate those "fake" brazilian guys too much! They might have changed the names of things but it's all NEWAZA to me...


http://www.judoinfo.com/jujigatame.htm

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Snake137

Yeah they learned it from the japanese in a style of ju jutsu called *kodokan* ju jutsu, which was started by kano. Obviously you haven't researched it yourselves. So now who'se the dummy?
Dude, ......


.

They stopped calling it Ju-Jutsu long ago.

Here's why:

While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties. While the old schools taught nothing but practice, the modern Judo gives the theoretical explanation of the doctrine, at the same time giving the practical a no less important place.
.....T. Shidachi, 1892

"In developing his Kodokan Judo system, Jigoro Kano was aware that a still older judo system existed, the Jikishin school. It represented a practical approach to combative exercises by being a synthesis of jujutsu systems. In one sense, it was a challenge to the Kodokan system. However, with jujutsu on the decline in the Meiji Period (1868 - 1912), anything similar in nature had little chance of survival. Professor Kano thus labored under terrific handicaps in bringing about a national interest and governmental recognition for his Kodokan system. By his tremendous foresight and his experience as an educator, he knew that unless his Judo system could obtain official governmental sanction, it too, was doomed along with jujutsu systems."


Donn F Draeger.



Snake137, you seem uninformed to me. (sorry but I've tried to help) This is for you.>>

http://www.kodokan.org/

[sapatiero]

Hi....

As a brownbelt in Japanese Ju Jutsu (with a lineage to Soke Fumon Tanake - a samarai family grandmaster and the only Japanese grandmaster allowed to demonstrate Katana in the palace), and

A blue (+tab) belt in BJJ (two main instructors - Ryron Gracie - son of Rorion, and Carlos Lemos Jr. (twice BJJ world champion & Barra instructor),

I feel that I'd like to offer some of my views.

First of all, both arts ARE different and both have their own merits.

- Ignoring any discussions about JJ originating from India, to the best of my knowledge, JJJ was the mother art that the samarai used, and spurned related Japanese arts (the strikes became karate (excluding okinawan), the momentum based throws & locks became aikido, the throws/chokes/locks were 'sportified' and became judo). It also included weapons such as bow, boccan, katana etc. The point of original JJJ was to kill your opponent, so the ogoshi (hip throw) position actually was back to back to break your opponents neck on landing.

So as you can imagine, only about 10-15% of the training I did was grappling, as it was diluted with all the other elements & kata etc. As a result, the grappling was a much lower standard than BJJ - my training partner & I would win regional & national tournaments with our groundwork, beating black belts, yet a whitebelt in BJJ with 6 months experience would walk all over us.

We eventually left the traditional club to train full time in BJJ. It IS different to Judo, the techniques have not only been modified, but many new techniques have been added. I know of a couple of BJJ purple belts that have been to Judo clubs and tapped all the DAN grades one after the other.

You can often 'feel' that a guy has a judo background because more strength is involved. Helio Gracie couldn't do the strength stuff, and his modifications made BJJ the relaxed martial art it is today.

As for fakeness, I never saw my JJJ sensei really spar with anyone, and certain techniques were held back. Compare that to Ryron/Rener Gracie - they'll happily let you try out a new technique on them, or roll with whoever wants to.

SO...

Is BJJ a martial art in its own right? YES, there are far more than minor modifications.

Don't get me wrong, JJJ is great for fitness, semi-contact striking, kata, weapons, some self defense etc., but BJJ is now a totally different animal and deserves recognition as such.

[CKD]

I do not believe Helio or Carlos really changed everything in BJJ. Most of the so called history we have on bjj is from Rorion. But there are a lot of different accounts on the history of BJJ and vale tudo in Brazil. I remember the person who is in charge of the Global Training report siad that a person who knew was going to write a book on the subject of BJJ and vale tudo in Brazil. So far he said the research has shown that the history of BJJ/VT is very different than what everyoe thinks it is. A lot of people also are crediting a Brazilian Judo practicioner named Mehdi with the developement of BJJ. Carlos only studied a year under Maeda and it seems at first Helio had a quite basic knowledge of BJJ. Some of the basic techniques we take for granted like the Kimura and triangle choke Helio apparently did not know during a good amount of his carreer as a fighter. Maeda taught a few other people besides Carlos here is one of them
Taken form onuzuka.com
"V. Luiz Franca: The Other Originator of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu


Maeda also taught Luiz Franca Jiu-Jitsu, and he also continued the tradition in Brazil. Luiz Franca and the brothers, Carlos and Hélio Gracie, had transferred residence to the one River-of January and there they had started to transmit the teachings learned with great Esai Maeda. Luiz Franca dedicated himself to teach Jiu-Jitsu as form of self-defense for the Armed Forces and to the devoid population of the zone north of Rio de Janeiro and the Gracie brothers had firmed residence in the south zone of the River and had opened the first academy of Jiu-Jitsu. The great master, 9th Degree Oswaldo Fadda, disciple of France Luiz, former-pupil of the Conde Koma, who was the introducer of the Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil, established the Fadda Academy of Jiu-Jitsu in Rio De Janeiro on the 27th of January of 1950. Fadda, a pioneer in the field of the infantile paralysis and recovery of deficient physicists, used the Jiu-Jitsu as aid to medical treatment; he undertook special work of social reintegration through the Jiu-Jitsu. He was a member of the Brazilian Confederation of Jiu-Jitsu and edited the book, "Jiu-Jitsu and the Complex in addition." Currently, no more lessons of Jiu-Jitsu are regularly performed in his academies; it is only dedicated to lecture courses of evaluation and perfecting Jiu-Jitsu, besides performing lectures on the education of Jiu-Jitsu and its daily applications. The course of evaluation and perfecting finished its 3rd edition in Brazil. He has stated that "It is the Jiu-Jitsu, the best [technique] to provide to a weak person in a dispute, a positive advantage that counterbalances the weight and the physical force of the adversary. It must always be held in mind that all the structure of the Jiu-Jitsu is based on the use of the strategy, agility, and the rapidity of movement and not in the pure and simple force." Jiu-Jitsu is the art of the self-defense particularly adjusted for women and, only after its knowledge is acquired, it is that it can be evaluated (Text elaborated for the Master 7º Deoclécio Degree Pablo, Deo, Master of Jiu-Jitsu in Brasilia.)."

What is interesting to note is that Franca did not claim to change any of the methods Maeda taught him yet no one could see any differences between what he was teaching and the Gracies style. Does this rebranding of the art make the Gracies frauds? Well if they are frauds then they are frauds that could beat up probaly everybody on this forum and most people except high level mma guys. They probaly saw a chance to get some fame by claiming this style is theirs instead of claiming they were preserving some old world judo. In the end they did seem to create something new. They were only taught a very small amount of what Maeda probaly knew. They then pretty much suffered the same fate as judo. They started out with an art that was mainly for fighting in NHB or for self defense, (which is what old judo was for), in the begiining they had gun defenses, striking standing and on the ground, (like old style judo) but in the end it transformed into a pure grappling sport with a unique set of rules. It can be used for mma but has to be greatly modified and changed with the allowance of strikes and has to be combined with other filtered down for mma arts to make a complete game.(once again just like judo) By the way I will try to find the name of the author writing the book about vale tudo in Brazil. Hopefully it will tell about challenge matches in Brazil and give a good unbiased history.

[Warrior189]

Originally Posted by Snake137

Yeah they learned it from the japanese in a style of ju jutsu called *kodokan* ju jutsu, which was started by kano. Obviously you haven't researched it yourselves. So now who'se the dummy?
Dude, I've seen a japanese dude take someone down with kodokan ju jutsu. Kodokan ju jutsu was bjj before bjj. There were more than one style of jjj you know. I know bjj is popular because so many people are desperate to further this current trend going on, but that doesn't justify taking someone else's art and repossessing it. Ju Jutsu started as a samurai art for warfare purposes, later becoming the prefered martial art of outlaws throughout ancient japan. As time went on it evolved into kodokan jj for tournament purposes. A kodokan jj master in the 20th century taught it in Brazil, and the Brazilians claimedit as their own. That doesn't make it a Brazilian martial art.

Your wrong Mitsuyo Maeda was the one who introduction JJ to Carlos Gracie who lived in Brazil n that was in the 1920's. Then JJ evolved into BJJ n BJJ have its own distinct style, incorporating techniques honed in the rough favelas. In BJJ they believe all fights end up on the ground so they might as well learn effective ground fighting techiques. These techniques include the aptly named guard and mount. While these two techniques seem very simple, they form the foundation for almost all other Brazilian jiu-jitsu techniques.

That is why they call it BJJ, because they developed their style of fighting n it was develop in Brazil.

[OmaPlata]

-Like i said before, who teaches BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU that HASNT learned it from a Gracie down the line http://bjj.org/
gracie jj is bjj

[OmaPlata]

We eventually left the traditional club to train full time in BJJ. It IS different to Judo, the techniques have not only been modified, but many new techniques have been added. I know of a couple of BJJ purple belts that have been to Judo clubs and tapped all the DAN grades one after the other.
>


-this pretty much sums it up

[Warrior189]

I found some interesting about JJ. It originated in India more than 2,000 BC.http://www.fightauthority.com/module...=content&tid=4

[CKD]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

-Like i said before, who teaches BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU that HASNT learned it from a Gracie down the line http://bjj.org/
gracie jj is bjj

Luiz Franca and a bunch of old guys in Japan that call themselves Kosen Judo practitioners. http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/news_archive_0603.shtml Here is an interesting article written by weel known BJJ stylist Gene Simco. Someone who is less lazy than me can post it.

[Hardball]

Testing, 123 testing, testing 123 testing