fake martial arts and fraud teachers

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Hardball

Testing, 123 testing, testing 123 testing

You crack me up.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by sapatiero

Hi....

As a brownbelt in Japanese Ju Jutsu
A blue (+tab) belt in BJJ (two main instructors - Ryron Gracie - son of Rorion, and Carlos Lemos Jr. (twice BJJ world champion & Barra instructor),

I feel that I'd like to offer some of my views.

First of all, both arts ARE different and both have their own merits.

-..........




...BJJ is now a totally different animal and deserves recognition as such.

Welcome to the forum!
In the words of a writer more eloquent and qualified than me:

To begin with, jujutsu, of whatever kind, is for protecting yourself against the attacks of an opponent. Kenjutsu protects a person by use of a sword, and jitte-jutsu protects a person by use of a jitte, which is a short metal truncheon. Jujutsu protects a person without using anything at all. Moreover, jujutsu must be able to protect a person from an opponent's attack encountered at any time or place. In other words, in order to cope with an opponent's unlimited and unqualified attack without using a weapon, jujutsu made avoiding the brunt of an attack by the use of agile movements the number one priority. As it has been taught from ancient times, The secret principle of jujutsu is moving your body out of the way

Kenji Tomiki

BJJ is judo newaza. (ground fighting) It has no lineage to any Japanese (jujutsu) Ryu Ha. It came directly from Kodokan Judo. Gracie jiu-jitsu is more like pre WW2 Kodokan Judo than modern Olympic Judo is.

The techniques are the same, the training methods are the same and the credit should be given to Kano.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

-Like i said before, who teaches BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU that HASNT learned it from a Gracie down the line http://bjj.org/
gracie jj is bjj

Unless it's REALLY KOSEN JUDO http://www.gws.ne.jp/home/demo2/katsudo99e.htm

Do these guys look Brazilian? Are they in Brazil? See any pictures of Helio? No.

[OmaPlata]

those guys are all black belts in what??? i got 100k that says any purple belt in BJJ could mop the mat with those guys

[Sensei Saki]

All of them?
Where did you get your 100k that says any purple belt in BJJ could mop the mat with those guys?
I have
an IQ of over 250.

[THT]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Welcome to the forum!
In the words of a writer more eloquent and qualified than me:

To begin with, jujutsu, of whatever kind, is for protecting yourself against the attacks of an opponent. Kenjutsu protects a person by use of a sword, and jitte-jutsu protects a person by use of a jitte, which is a short metal truncheon. Jujutsu protects a person without using anything at all. Moreover, jujutsu must be able to protect a person from an opponent's attack encountered at any time or place. In other words, in order to cope with an opponent's unlimited and unqualified attack without using a weapon, jujutsu made avoiding the brunt of an attack by the use of agile movements the number one priority. As it has been taught from ancient times, The secret principle of jujutsu is moving your body out of the way

Kenji Tomiki

BJJ is judo newaza. (ground fighting) It has no lineage to any Japanese (jujutsu) Ryu Ha. It came directly from Kodokan Judo. Gracie jiu-jitsu is more like pre WW2 Kodokan Judo than modern Olympic Judo is.

The techniques are the same, the training methods are the same and the credit should be given to Kano.

Thank you!

If some of the people here argueing so vehemently for bjj would research a bit more (like read Renzo GRACIE's book Mastering Ju Jitsu) you and others wouldn't have to make this point 15 times. Renzo himself outlines the history of his family's art in the first few chapters. It quite an interesting book and I think it (and others I'm sure) would probably clear this particular subject in this thread up.

Peace

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by Snake137

Dude, I never once said a bbj fighter couldn't fight. I even said that the Gracies were awesome fighters. So don't be dumb. What I said was "Brazilian" ju jutsu is just ju jutsu, they stole it from japan, made a few basrely noticeable changes, and claimed it as their own. In other words it's not original, it's theft. Ju Jutsu is Ju Jutsu, reguardless if they wann *claim* that it's Brazilian, Nordic, German, Swahili, or wtf, it's JU JUTSU, it's rightfully JAPANESE, NOT BRAZILIAN. Can you understand that?
"BBJ" fighter are just ju jutsu fighters, it's not a Brazilian style. Fake teachers steal martial arts and change one or two small details that you would barely even notice and reclaim it as theirs. It's not theirs, Ju Jutsu is Japanese, not Brazilian. Is this marinating any?
If Brazilians want their own martial art, they probably already have a few that they keep amoung themselves but if not then they should create their own. If somebody wants to train in a foreign style that's fine, but they shouldn't say that their culture owns it. That's an injustice to Japan, and quite frankly, a slap in the face of Japanese culture.
So once again, lemme explain this:
HERE ARE SOME *REAL* EXAMPLES OF NON-ASIAN MARTIAL ARTS:
1. savate
2. kampfringen
3. Capoiera
4. Krav Maga
5. Nubian Wrestling
6. Boxing
7. Dambe Boxing
Do you see a theme? Theyr all home-grown, this means they didn't take an art from Japan or China, twirk it up alittle, and say it was theirs. The one's I named above were owned by the peoples' who created them. Now, look at the following:
1. Brazilian Ju Jutsu
2. Native American Kenpo
3. American Kenpo

You get the idea, right? There are hundreds of them. But they are all hi-jacked and repolished, but theyr still the same martial art that originally belonged to someone else, the Japanese in this case. People are also known to steal forms of kung fu.
Like I said, if they wanna learn karate or ju jutsu and their not japanese, or they wanna learn kung fu and theyr not chinese, this is fine. That is not a problem. It only becomes a problem when all these "Great teachers" steal the martial art by decorating it with thier personal culture and reclaiming it as their own. That's when it becomes a problem.
This is why the Asian cultures didn't initially want their martial arts to spread around the world, for this very reason. This is why Bruce Lee was outcasted by large groups of his people back in China for expanding the martial arts outside of Asia.

All of the "Asian" martial arts were "Stolen" from India. India, in turn "Stole" them from Greece when Alexander brought Pankration there. This is a stupid argument.

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

<> I never said they couldn't fight

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dude, I never once said a bbj fighter couldn't fight. I even said that the Gracies were awesome fighters. So don't be dumb. What I said was "Brazilian" ju jutsu is just ju jutsu, they stole it from japan, made a few basrely noticeable changes,


-yea barley noticeable things like take downs and leg locks. It wasnt stolen dummy, it was taught to Carlos sr., who taught Helio, who mastered the art. No one else taught it in Brazil, or anywhere. The Gracies are Brazilian Jiu Jitsu ANybody that teaches Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, learned it from the Gracies somewhere down the line : http://bjj.org/lineage.html

Maeda combined early Judo with American Catch As Catch Can Wrestling that he learned in the USA while touring as a professional wrestler (before they were all "worked" matches and were more often than not shoots). The Gracies have been battling for supremacy in Brazil with the Lucha Libre crowd for decades. Most of their matches are NOT public. Wonder why the Gracies are so shy with these matches getting pubicized?

[beatbreeder86]

sooner or later it had to happen, myself being from all over the world only thing i could say about this is, thank cultural globalization, its the most beautiful thing that could happen...like pasta coming from the chinese noodles, what did the italians do?? they claimed it to be their own

[Sensei Saki]

What happened to it?
Interesting comparison.The anonymous "they".

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by beatbreeder86

sooner or later it had to happen, myself being from all over the world only thing i could say about this is, thank cultural globalization, its the most beautiful thing that could happen...like pasta coming from the chinese noodles, what did the italians do?? they claimed it to be their own

Precisely. Find any martial art that is "pure." The fact that the Gracies ect. call it "BRAZILIAN Jiu Jitsu" belies the notion that they are trying to be devious. They are acknowledging their Japanese roots while still making it clear that they are doing their own thing.

[DVSJ]

Originally Posted by Danjo

All of the "Asian" martial arts were "Stolen" from India. India, in turn "Stole" them from Greece when Alexander brought Pankration there. This is a stupid argument.

And all was stolen from Africa........

[ttsure]

In regards to your post about fraudulent martial artists -- I guess anyone who is not Japanese would be a fraud then?

In regards to your post about Chief Adrian Roman -- you should visit his home in Dallas and discuss your beliefs that he is a fraud. He has a training area inside the house that he can show you. I have been there, and respectfully examined his techniques. Although he is very old (65), he could still exert enough lethal force to break one's neck. His method of training via the internet and so forth is rediculous, and serves only to provide income for an old warrior. Yes he is of American Indian decent and he studied Kenpo karate under Ed Parker. He calls his style American Indian Kenpo because it is a representation of his own self image.

The idea that all martial arts originated in one country or even one continent of the world is foolish. Over the past centuries, numerous wars and conflicts have caused technique to migrate across geographical boundaries. All civilizations have had martial arts of some sort. Even one of the arts you mention -- Krav Maga -- is the fusion of three different styles, one being Karate, another being boxing, and another being wrestling. So is Krav Maga "Japanese"?

[beatbreeder86]

[QUOTE=ttsure]In regards to your post about fraudulent martial artists -- I guess anyone who is not Japanese would be a fraud then?





so desu ne, this is a stupid arguement, but must say it is interesting on seeing how people are very ignorant. BJJ, yes it is Kano's style of judo, but helio gracie(founder of bjj) modified it to his own way by different leverages, with respect he in a way perfected this martial art, and gave it the name gracie jiu jitsu because of his style. And anyways now a days most japanese people(newer generations) respect bjj as a style of martial art, so if it doesent bother us, why should it bother you people.
by the way this is coming for a happu(half japanese those who dont know)

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by Sensei Saki

All of them?
Where did you get your 100k that says any purple belt in BJJ could mop the mat with those guys?
I have
an IQ of over 250.

-real estate. i bought 3 houses, one a year since 2001, and in san diego real estate prices have went up average of 23% per year, you can do the math if u have a 250 IQ