fake martial arts and fraud teachers

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by ttsure

In regards to your post about fraudulent martial artists -- I guess anyone who is not Japanese would be a fraud then?

...... All civilizations have had martial arts of some sort. Even one of the arts you mention -- Krav Maga -- is the fusion of three different styles, one being Karate, another being boxing, and another being wrestling. So is Krav Maga "Japanese"?

Hi. nice to see a new guest or member jumping on board!

I'm new too and this forum is a splendid thing because the provider, our host is kind enough to keep it up and running. The exchange of information here is outstanding!

And then we have all the varied OPINIONS which are also just fine but when a person presents information that is incomplete or misleading... Someone will be there to set it right.

Today you have the good fortune to be introduced to me. My name is Ray and to be fair the founder of KM is a blackbelt in JUDO

KM co-founder Moni Aizik started training JUDO (at age 6 under Opa Schutte) when his family moved to Amsterdam, Netherlands. He can trace his lineage straight to KANO Sensei.


Good Day.

[THT]

This is a break to take up space for editing out nonsense.










I now return you to your regularly scheduled conversation

[OSHIEGO]

Originally Posted by Snake137

.
To start with, any true martial artist understands that any martial art is made up of a set of predefined movements, philosophies, strategies, etc., which acts as that particular martial art's DNA. So anybody claiming to teach "Native American Kenpo" or "Brazilian Ju Jutsu", or whatever, they are frauds. Just because someone takes an Asian style and changes a few slight, barely noticeable aspects and claims it as their own doesn't make it original. It is culture identity theft! Brazilian Ju Jutsu doesn't differ that wildly from Japanese Ju Jutsu, it's popular because of this trend about studying non-Asian martial arts (though the Gracies are awesome fighters, but still bjj is a fraud nonetheless). And I think that it's good for people to aspire to get the word out that MA aren't purely an asian thing, and that all cultures have martial arts. Bring all cultures forward like Bruce Lee did with Asia.
But that doesn't make it ok for people to steal a martial art and call it their own... Chief Adrian Roman is a fraud and it's already gotten out of the bag. In fact if I'm not mistaken he's not even Native American! Anything ending in Jutsu, Do, or Ryu is Asian. Anything that is a style of "karate" or "kenpo" (which is a style of karate itself), or "ju jutsu", or whatever, reguardless if they put "Norwegian" or "Somolian" or "Canadian" in front of it, IT'S ASIAN! Ju Jutsu is Ju Jutsu, Karate is karate, period. It originated from Japan.


Snake

I THINK THAT YOU ARE MISINTERPRETING THE INTENTIONS OF THOSE WHO PRECEDE THE NAME OF A DISCIPLINE WITH THE NAME OF THEIR COUNTRY, GROUP OR FAMILY. IN JU JUTSU YOU MAY SEE THE NAME OF THE DISCIPLINE PRECEDED WITH SOMETHING LIKE "MIYAMA RYU JUJUTSU" OR "DANZAN RYU JUJUTSU" AND ALL IT MEANS IS THAT THEY ARE THE "MIYAMA" OR "DANZAN" "STYLE" OF JUJUTSU. ( RYU = STYLE OF OR METHOD OF) THE GRACIES, FOR EXAMPLE PREFER TO REFER TO THEIR ART AS "GRACIE JIU JITSU" BECAUSE IT IS JIU JITSU AS PERFECTED BY AND PRACTICED BY THEM, NOT BECAUSE THEY LAY CLAIM TO THE WHOLE DISCIPLINE. THEY, JUST LIKE MANY OTHER GROUPS, COUNTRIES AND INDIVIDUALS ARE JUST TRYING TO DISTINGUISH THEIR STYLE OR METHOD OF THE PARTICULAR DISCIPLINE FROM THE REST.

_____________________

BE LIKE WATER...

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by OSHIEGO

I THINK THAT YOU ARE MISINTERPRETING THE INTENTIONS OF THOSE WHO PRECEDE THE NAME OF A DISCIPLINE WITH THE NAME OF THEIR COUNTRY, GROUP OR FAMILY. IN JU JUTSU YOU MAY SEE THE NAME OF THE DISCIPLINE PRECEDED WITH SOMETHING LIKE "MIYAMA RYU JUJUTSU" OR "DANZAN RYU JUJUTSU" AND ALL IT MEANS IS THAT THEY ARE THE "MIYAMA" OR "DANZAN" "STYLE" OF JUJUTSU. ( RYU = STYLE OF OR METHOD OF) THE GRACIES, FOR EXAMPLE PREFER TO REFER TO THEIR ART AS "GRACIE JIU JITSU" BECAUSE IT IS JIU JITSU AS PERFECTED BY AND PRACTICED BY THEM, NOT BECAUSE THEY LAY CLAIM TO THE WHOLE DISCIPLINE. THEY, JUST LIKE MANY OTHER GROUPS, COUNTRIES AND INDIVIDUALS ARE JUST TRYING TO DISTINGUISH THEIR STYLE OR METHOD OF THE PARTICULAR DISCIPLINE FROM THE REST.

_____________________

BE LIKE WATER...

I agree with what you wrote here. The Gracies have always given credit to Maeda for teaching them JJ in the first place. It's not like they tried to say that they got the idea one day sitting around watching monkeys or something.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Danjo

I agree with what you wrote here. The Gracies have always given credit to Maeda for teaching them JJ in the first place. It's not like they tried to say that they got the idea one day sitting around watching monkeys or something.

And the fact that Maeda was a KODOKAN JUDOKA and taught Carlos Judo seems to be lost... (or hidden?)

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by Tant01

And the fact that Maeda was a KODOKAN JUDOKA and taught Carlos Judo seems to be lost... (or hidden?)

Yes, but from what I have read in numerous places, Kodokan Judo doesn't currently resemble what it originally did. It seems that there were several changes made to the original curriculum due to contest rules being refined. Some of those being less of an emphasis on ground work and no tackles allowed. According to Gene LeBell, tackling was made illegal as a takedown technique in Kodokan Judo, because it worked far better than the other throws etc, and no one would use anything else in competition. Since they wanted to have people use throws, they outlawed tackles. The earliest Judo competitions looked very much like BJJ contests do currently from what I have read. So, what Maeda taught to Carlos Gracie, wasn't the same thing you'll find in a modern Kodokan Judo dojo.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Danjo

Yes, but from what I have read in numerous places, Kodokan Judo doesn't currently resemble what it originally did. It seems that there were several changes made to the original curriculum due to contest rules being refined. Some of those being less of an emphasis on ground work and no tackles allowed. According to Gene LeBell, tackling was made illegal as a takedown technique in Kodokan Judo, because it worked far better than the other throws etc, and no one would use anything else in competition. Since they wanted to have people use throws, they outlawed tackles. The earliest Judo competitions looked very much like BJJ contests do currently from what I have read. So, what Maeda taught to Carlos Gracie, wasn't the same thing you'll find in a modern Kodokan Judo dojo.

Indeed Mr. Danjo. That however does not change the fact that BJJ is more like traditional Kodokan Judo than Ju-Jutsu. There were a number of factors that led to the contest rule changes in 1925. The popularity of newaza and kosen Judo tactics in tournaments was a big one. Further, the face of Kodokan would change forever after the surrender of Japan in WWII. And after the introduction of Judo as an Olympic sport in 1964 the focus of training changed even more.

Bjj is a good example of pre war Judo... preserved with fewer changes than modern judo.


The reality is that some effort has been made and some folks continue to obscure the real roots of BJJ... IMO.


But, what do I know?

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by Tant01

Indeed Mr. Danjo. That however does not change the fact that BJJ is more like traditional Kodokan Judo than Ju-Jutsu. There were a number of factors that led to the contest rule changes in 1925. The popularity of newaza and kosen Judo tactics in tournaments was a big one. Further, the face of Kodokan would change forever after the surrender of Japan in WWII. And after the introduction of Judo as an Olympic sport in 1964 the focus of training changed even more.

Bjj is a good example of pre war Judo... preserved with fewer changes than modern judo.


The reality is that some effort has been made and some folks continue to obscure the real roots of BJJ... IMO.


But, what do I know?

As to the origins being obscured, it seems less like they are trying to take credit away from Judo, and more like Rorion etc. are trying to take away from Carlos as anything except the one that created the Gracie Diet. Carlos who,(in all photos I have seen of him) was smaller than Helio, was beating everyone with what he had learned from Maeda. So was Osvaldo Gracie. This was before Helio even began competing. Yet, if we are to take what is said at face value, Helio created GJJ. Most of Carlos' offspring give Helio credit for refining GJJ, but they also say the same about Carlson and Rolls. Go figure.

The point is that if the JJ/Judo that the Gracies learned from Maeda was good enough to make champions out of Helio's older brothers before he even started it, then how much better could it be?

As to the "It was really Judo, not Ju Jutsu" argument...many people originally said that "Judo" was a form of "Ju Jutsu" that the difference was mainly the philisophical outlook. The same thing is seen with "Karate-jutsu" versus "Karate-do" "Ju-jutsu" versus "Ju-do". So it's entirely possible that Maeda told the Gracies that they were being taught "Jujutsu" and that there is no intended obscurantism taking place.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Danjo

As to the origins being obscured, it seems less like they are trying to take credit away from Judo.....
...As to the "It was really Judo, not Ju Jutsu" argument...many people originally said that "Judo" was a form of "Ju Jutsu" that the difference was mainly the philisophical outlook. ...
.... So it's entirely possible that Maeda told the Gracies that they were being taught "Jujutsu" and that there is no intended obscurantism taking place.

http://judoinfo.com/helio.htm


in 1994 (11) years ago they said this>>>

This interview was conducted in 1994 just after the UFC 3, but was published for the first time on May 1, 2002 in Japan. Nishi Yoshinori participated in a seminar held one day before the Ultimate in Charlotte. What drew attention there was Helio Gracie who was teaching Nishi with care. On September 15, four days later, Nishi visited the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy owned by Rorion in Los Angeles. Helio, who postponed his return to Brazil in expectation of his visit, was waiting for him there. Nishi took a private lesson on the advice of Rorion. When the one-hour training was finished, Helio came to Nishi saying "there is something I want to show you." What was put in front of Nishi were rare pictures of his legendary fight with Masahiko Kimura,...

Nishi: I would like to ask you something technical before the story about Kimura. What kind of style of jiu-jitsu was it you learned?

Helio: I remember vaguely that my brother Carlos was learning it from Konde Koma (Kosei Maeda) around 1914. Anyway I was just four years old at that time. To tell the truth, I don't remember well the technique directly taught by Koma.
...

Nishi: When judo came into Brazil, didn't you think it was similar to jiu-jitsu?

Rorion: I have a strong impression about judo that judo is a sport where the objective is to throw the opponent to the ground using power. But I think maybe the original art is jiu-jitsu. When Japan lost in the World War II and America was occupying Japan, they taught the Americans judo, but not jiu-jitsu. In that sense, we were lucky to have been able to come in contact directly with jiu-jitsu first, rather than judo....


Nishi: Could you tell me more details about the fight with the master Kimura?

Helio: Sure!

Helio: In the beginning I carefully tried to find a breakthrough, but I was in his control as soon as we stood close to each other. I had no time to even hold or grapple him. What I barely could do was to avoid his perfect throw in such a way that I relaxed the strength of all my body and moved my position a little bit at the moment when Kimura tried to throw me and as a result Kimura lost his balance. I was taken into the ground, and I got choked at first. It was difficult to breathe. I felt it working enough so I was wondering if I should tap as I promised Carlos.

Nishi: ?

Helio: Well, this is what I've never told anybody before. It seems I went unconscious while I was thinking about what to do [give up or not].

Naturally all the staff let alone Nishi were surprised to hear that, but what was more impressive than that was the shocked expression on Rorion's face.

Helio: If Kimura had continued to choke me, I would have died for sure. But since I didn't give up, Kimura let go of the choke and went into the next technique. Being released from the choke and the pain from the next technique revived me and I continued to fight. Kimura went to his grave without ever knowing the fact that I was finished. If possible, I wish I could have talked about the fight with him and let him know about it.

Nishi: I will tell his wife without fail....




I contend that they were taught techniques from judo that Meada had used to win his fights. Fighting=jujutsu.

The techniques and training methods are from Judo. They know it's not Jujutsu by now? They know Meada was a KODOKAN JUDOKA sent abroad to teach Judo...

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by Tant01

http://judoinfo.com/helio.htm







I contend that they were taught techniques from judo that Meada had used to win his fights. Fighting=jujutsu.

The techniques and training methods are from Judo. They know it's not Jujutsu by now? They know Meada was a KODOKAN JUDOKA sent abroad to teach Judo...

Okay, what, to your knowledge, was the big difference between 1911 era Judo and Jujutsu that would have made it such a faux paus for Helio to refer to it as Jujutsu? Keep in mind that Rorion seems to be talking about modern Judo.

[Danjo]

Here's what I found at this website [ http://www.cdfacademies.com/bjj.htm ] about Maeda's Judo:
Maeda thought of judo as the ultimate form of self-defense. To him, western arts such as boxing and wrestling were only sports with set of rules. Maeda's strategy in an anything goes fight was to set his opponent up with an elbow or low kick. He would then go for a throw and then finish his opponent off on the ground with a choke or joint lock.

Maeda stated in his autobiography that he took Kodokan judo techniques and pared them down to the simplest, most effective methods exploiting what he observed were the weaknesses of wrestling and boxing. He studied the two enough to see what were their strengths. He is quoted as saying that he took elements from taryu shiai judo (judo techniques specifically used for matches against other schools), pared them down, and used techniques that were deemed most effective. For example, he found that boxers were relatively unaware of defenses against judo groundwork, so he concentrated on take-downs and groundwork.

Maeda traveled the world and learned from his experiences and slowly developed his own unique expression of judo. When Kimura encountered Helio Gracie, what he saw reminded him of the earlier judo methods that were rough and tumble. Prewar (prior to WWII) Judo had body locks, leg locks, unusual choking techniques that were discarded because they were not legal in contest judo, which had evolved slowly over the years.


Doesn't sound like pure Kodokan to me.

[Penance]

It's offensive for anyone to use the words "theft" or "stole."

The techniques and style were GIVEN freely as a gift and in appreciation. Although very interesting, where those techniques originated from is not important. The style was taught and over the years it has been refined and modified based on EXPERIENCE.

If there's one, single thing I can point out that clearly distinguishes brazillian/gracie jiu jitsu from other jiu jitsu, ju jutsu, judo, karate, and aikido styles it is that it's purposely and constantly adapating and changing.

All of the other styles are rooted in tradition and the styles have mostly been carefully preserved. This is interesting and good in its own way. However, BJJ is what it is and will continue to be distinct no matter how it changes because change and adaptation are part of the very definition of the art itself. BJJ uses what works and disposes of that which doesn't. What works and what doesn't work is constantly determined by real world encounters, not just by the Gracie's but by everyone who practices BJJ. And when other BJJ practitioners get together: THEY SHARE!

[OmaPlata]

BJJ is the best period, who cares about the other crap, take the guy down and submit him

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

BJJ is the best period, who cares about the other crap, take the guy down and submit him

"A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when from any cause or causes he may become unconscious."

Kano Judo Contest Rules (Old school)


Choke him out!

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Danjo

Here's what I found at this website [ http://www.cdfacademies.com/bjj.htm ] about Maeda's Judo:
Maeda thought of judo as the ultimate form of self-defense. To him, western arts such as boxing and wrestling were only sports with set of rules. Maeda's strategy in an anything goes fight was to set his opponent up with an elbow or low kick. He would then go for a throw and then finish his opponent off on the ground with a choke or joint lock.

Maeda stated in his autobiography that he took Kodokan judo techniques and pared them down to the simplest, most effective methods exploiting what he observed were the weaknesses of wrestling and boxing. He studied the two enough to see what were their strengths. He is quoted as saying that he took elements from taryu shiai judo (judo techniques specifically used for matches against other schools), pared them down, and used techniques that were deemed most effective. For example, he found that boxers were relatively unaware of defenses against judo groundwork, so he concentrated on take-downs and groundwork.

Maeda traveled the world and learned from his experiences and slowly developed his own unique expression of judo. When Kimura encountered Helio Gracie, what he saw reminded him of the earlier judo methods that were rough and tumble. Prewar (prior to WWII) Judo had body locks, leg locks, unusual choking techniques that were discarded because they were not legal in contest judo, which had evolved slowly over the years.


Doesn't sound like pure Kodokan to me.

Good stuff Mr.Danjo.

Thanks for your time and attention. In 1925 the rules for contests were changed to promote the throwing aspects of the art. Emphasis on groundword slowly disolved from the curriculum (except at Kosen schools) After the war ALL MARTIAL ARTS were banned in Japan. What was permitted to reopen and call itself the Kodokan was a sport only version of a well rounded art. Thank General Douglas MacArthur for that. Occupied Japan was a martial free zone.