fake martial arts and fraud teachers

[OSHIEGO]

Originally Posted by Danjo

As to the origins being obscured, it seems less like they are trying to take credit away from Judo, and more like Rorion etc. are trying to take away from Carlos as anything except the one that created the Gracie Diet. Carlos who,(in all photos I have seen of him) was smaller than Helio, was beating everyone with what he had learned from Maeda. So was Osvaldo Gracie. This was before Helio even began competing. Yet, if we are to take what is said at face value, Helio created GJJ. Most of Carlos' offspring give Helio credit for refining GJJ, but they also say the same about Carlson and Rolls. Go figure.

The point is that if the JJ/Judo that the Gracies learned from Maeda was good enough to make champions out of Helio's older brothers before he even started it, then how much better could it be?

As to the "It was really Judo, not Ju Jutsu" argument...many people originally said that "Judo" was a form of "Ju Jutsu" that the difference was mainly the philisophical outlook. The same thing is seen with "Karate-jutsu" versus "Karate-do" "Ju-jutsu" versus "Ju-do". So it's entirely possible that Maeda told the Gracies that they were being taught "Jujutsu" and that there is no intended obscurantism taking place.

WHEN IT COMES TO GRAND MASTER HELIO GRACIE, I DO NOT THINK THAT NEITHER HE NOR RORION TRY TO REALLY HIDE THE FACT THAT CARLOS WAS THE ONE WHO TAUGHT HELIO, I THINK IT IS MORE LIKE THEY TRY TO EMPHASIZE THE FACT THAT HELIO HAD TO MAKE THE TECHNIQUES MORE EFFICIENT DUE TO HIS SMALLER AND LIGHTER STATURE. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT GRACIE JIU JUTSU MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLES GOSHIN OR GOSHEN JUDO.(NOT SURE OF THE CORRECT SPELLING) AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE ORIGINS OF THE DIFFERENT DISCIPLINES, THEY ARE BASICLY DERIVED FROM THE SAME SOURCE.

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BE LIKE WATER..

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by OSHIEGO

WHEN IT COMES TO GRAND MASTER HELIO GRACIE, I DO NOT THINK THAT NEITHER HE NOR RORION TRY TO REALLY HIDE THE FACT THAT CARLOS WAS THE ONE WHO TAUGHT HELIO, I THINK IT IS MORE LIKE THEY TRY TO EMPHASIZE THE FACT THAT HELIO HAD TO MAKE THE TECHNIQUES MORE EFFICIENT DUE TO HIS SMALLER AND LIGHTER STATURE. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT GRACIE JIU JUTSU MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLES GOSHIN OR GOSHEN JUDO.(NOT SURE OF THE CORRECT SPELLING) AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE ORIGINS OF THE DIFFERENT DISCIPLINES, THEY ARE BASICLY DERIVED FROM THE SAME SOURCE.

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BE LIKE WATER..

The problem I have with this story is that I have seen several photos of Helio standing next to Carlos. In every one, Helio looks bigger than Carlos. Why would Helio need more leverage than his apparently smaller older brother?

[beatbreeder86]

we wouldnt have this discussion if the gracies werent brazilians would we now...and let me remind you somethign that all far eastern martial arts descend from India, and if you call bjj a "fake" martial arts, first take notice of all the different types of martial arts that have evolved here in america, i dont here anyone saying how "fake" they are

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by beatbreeder86

we wouldnt have this discussion if the gracies werent brazilians would we now...and let me remind you somethign that all far eastern martial arts descend from India, and if you call bjj a "fake" martial arts, first take notice of all the different types of martial arts that have evolved here in america, i dont here anyone saying how "fake" they are

I don't think anyone is calling Gracie JJ "fake." Everyone knows how good it is. No one would even be debating this if not for the fact that BJJ (not Kosen Judo etc.) took the world by storm. I have had years in various martial arts starting with Shotokan karate, JKD Concepts, Aikido, Judo, Shaolin Kempo, High School Wrestling etc. When I started studying at the Ralph Gracie Academy however, it was a whole new ball game. That stuff was not theoretical, it was for REAL and within three months, my grappling skills were through the roof compared to what they were before. I am still nothing compared to the more advanced students, but compared to what I had done before, it is night and day. So, no, BJJ is not "fake" the debate centered around the origins and how much they added to what they originally got from Maeda.

[beatbreeder86]

sorry i did not read the discussion, i just directly responded to the name of the thread "fake martial arts and fraud teachers"

[OSHIEGO]

I Am Not Sure Of Which Pictures You Are Referring To Or Of Which Of The Two Is The Larger Man But The Leverage That Helio Needed Was The Leverage Which Would Allow Him, Or Anyone Else Who Practiced His Techniques, To Deal With An Opponent Who Was Larger Or Stronger.

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BE LIKE WATER...

[Hardball]

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread yet, But i will later. If you want a good perspective on fraudulent black belts; see my thread on www.bullshido.net. Do a search in the bullshido forumn. The author is me, hardball and the name of the thread is Dan Ranks.

Bowing Out.

[Danjo]

Originally Posted by OSHIEGO

I Am Not Sure Of Which Pictures You Are Referring To Or Of Which Of The Two Is The Larger Man But The Leverage That Helio Needed Was The Leverage Which Would Allow Him, Or Anyone Else Who Practiced His Techniques, To Deal With An Opponent Who Was Larger Or Stronger.

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BE LIKE WATER...

The pictures I'm refering to are the ones in the Gracie Way book put out by their family. The story that Helio's group have always told is that he had to adjust the leverage from what Carlos and Osvaldo were using because he was to small to make the techniques work the way that they were doing them. This seemed odd to me given that he appears larger than Carlos in all of the pictures.

[pstevens]

Anyone who thinks JJJ and BJJ are one and the same has no knowledge of either one. First of all, there are literally hundreds of JJJ styles, many of which are completely different from each other. In contrast, ALL BJJ practitioners know armbar from mount, elbow escape, etc... (the same basic techniques).

However, the main argument here is that any style that is derived from another is a fraud... How so? I believe karate and judo were offsprings of jiu-jitsu, does that make them frauds?

The bottomline is this: Anyone has a right to create their own style (such has been the case throughout history), but they better be able to prove its worth to hold credibility.

BJJ is NOT Judo nor JJJ... They share some similarities, just as kung-fu, karate and tae kwon do and any other striking arts: jab, various straight punches, front kick, roundhouse, etc...

I've tried several styles of JJJ and judo before BJJ - they're worlds apart. Some JJJ and judo have ZERO or very limited ground, sparring or full contact. And if they did incorporate the ground game, it's level of proficiency, technicality and overall measure was child's play compared to BJJ.

I'm not saying BJJ is better than JJJ or Judo, but when the ground game is concerned, BJJ is much, much better.

[Sensei Saki]

All of them?That is something I haven't heard of. And second?Where is that?I never noticed that similarity.Who told you that?,
Sorry that was an obscure remark.Just because you believe it doesn't make it true.Tell me more.What is BJJ?
Who does "they" refer to?I'm not sure if I would like to try several styles of JJJ and judo before BJJ - they are worlds apart . What's it like?Some may JJJ and judo have ZERO or very limited ground sparring or full contact, but not all.Let's wait and see what they do.What are you saying?

[enviro_phd]

Snake,

Very well stated! I am a 3rd Dan in TKD and no longer able to practice due to a spinal injury(not Martial Art related). However, my 10 year old son has been in TSD since he was 3 1/2 and we have been thru 4 schools and due to the lack of traditional values, quality and the instructors wanting to change things as they go along! (2 schools closed and the other 2 are trying to play Martial Art creator andmaster). This is not what Martial arts is all about.
You can learn or teach the ancient Martial Art history if at every turn there are changes as each school and instructor sees fit!
My son is a 1st Dan in TSD(should be higher by now) but having to restart at every school has really slowed his training.
We are again searching for another school after being told by the instructor that he is now enacting new rules that kids are not allowed to test higher than their 1st Dan until they are 16 years old plus they are making forms up now as they go along.
I find it difficult to understand how you can hold any student back due to their age! If they know what they need to know they have earned the right to test for an increase in rank regardless of age. I see this as a sort of age discrimination. So, anyone that knows of any good local Dojo's in the Davison, MI area please let me know. Thanks for letting me rant!!!

[sapatiero]

I think you are over simplifying things slightly. I do not disagree with you on the part that a traditional Japanese guy went to Brazil and taught the Brazilians (which in fact, it was not the Brazilians as a whole it was Carlos Gracie). The Brazilians as you put it did not just rename it at that stage. It was after many years of Carlos teaching it as he was taught and calling it Ju Jitsu, that Helio made changes too it because he was a small weak man and did not have the strength to use it in it's original form. The changes he made were based in making more use of leverage. He then went on to beat some of Japans greatest Jiu Jitsu fighters using his modification. Over the years it has become even further removed from it's original tadtional style. You may feel it is not right to change an art (in some, no, many peoples mind for the better) and then re name it. But no one complained when Kano changed Ju Jistu very very slightly and called it Judo. Or when Ju Jitsu was changed again very small amounts and called Aikido. No one complained either when Bruce Lee trained in many styles and named it a stytle of his own.

Is it not possible to just accept that there are other styles of Martial art out there. All of them only as good as the teachers and fighters and let everyone justt get on and train?

Originally Posted by Snake137

Yeah they learned it from the japanese in a style of ju jutsu called *kodokan* ju jutsu, which was started by kano. Obviously you haven't researched it yourselves. So now who'se the dummy?
Dude, I've seen a japanese dude take someone down with kodokan ju jutsu. Kodokan ju jutsu was bjj before bjj. There were more than one style of jjj you know. I know bjj is popular because so many people are desperate to further this current trend going on, but that doesn't justify taking someone else's art and repossessing it. Ju Jutsu started as a samurai art for warfare purposes, later becoming the prefered martial art of outlaws throughout ancient japan. As time went on it evolved into kodokan jj for tournament purposes. A kodokan jj master in the 20th century taught it in Brazil, and the Brazilians claimedit as their own. That doesn't make it a Brazilian martial art.

[sapatiero]

In the pictures he may look the same as Cralos. The main problems he had were breathing and exercise related in that the doctors had advised he was to weak to partcipate in execise. Have you ever seen Helio in person?

Let me assure you he is not a large man. He is a very small less than 10 stone man. But when he chokes you it is like no other I have experienced. This includes a tradional japanese soki!

Originally Posted by Danjo

The pictures I'm refering to are the ones in the Gracie Way book put out by their family. The story that Helio's group have always told is that he had to adjust the leverage from what Carlos and Osvaldo were using because he was to small to make the techniques work the way that they were doing them. This seemed odd to me given that he appears larger than Carlos in all of the pictures.

[londonboy]

All martial arts are frauds if you see it like that. Karate and judo were stolen from china and kung fu, kung fu was stolen from india. All ma's are different but similar, we all have two arms and two legs, it all depends on how you move them.

There are a lot of fake teachers about, ive been doing various martial arts since i was a kid, tkd, kick boxing, BJJ. Now i realise they were all fakes or just not too good. my last teacher is the only real pro ive trained with and that was kung fu, seriously expensive though. If you can afford it and live in london, this guy is the best at real life combat and a very good teacher aswell. He used to do no rules underground fights and he knows his stuff. You cant tell much from the stuff on his site but he could finish most pro fighters in a few seconds. i googled his name and found his page, have a look.

MySpace.com - Master Chet - 31 - Male - UK - www.myspace.com/esoteric_kungfu

[jubaji]

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