fake martial arts and fraud teachers

Hey, I've actually been on this forum for alittle while but I am usually soft spoken unless I have something to say. I didn't know which section to post this in so I figured this one is as good as any. I would like to talk about a disturbing trend I see going on within the martial arts community. Now, this may be alittle controversial but when you think about it, it's neccessary to bring up within the community.
To start with, any true martial artist understands that any martial art is made up of a set of predefined movements, philosophies, strategies, etc., which acts as that particular martial art's DNA. So anybody claiming to teach "Native American Kenpo" or "Brazilian Ju Jutsu", or whatever, they are frauds. Just because someone takes an Asian style and changes a few slight, barely noticeable aspects and claims it as their own doesn't make it original. It is culture identity theft! Brazilian Ju Jutsu doesn't differ that wildly from Japanese Ju Jutsu, it's popular because of this trend about studying non-Asian martial arts (though the Gracies are awesome fighters, but still bjj is a fraud nonetheless). And I think that it's good for people to aspire to get the word out that MA aren't purely an asian thing, and that all cultures have martial arts. Bring all cultures forward like Bruce Lee did with Asia.
But that doesn't make it ok for people to steal a martial art and call it their own... Chief Adrian Roman is a fraud and it's already gotten out of the bag. In fact if I'm not mistaken he's not even Native American! Anything ending in Jutsu, Do, or Ryu is Asian. Anything that is a style of "karate" or "kenpo" (which is a style of karate itself), or "ju jutsu", or whatever, reguardless if they put "Norwegian" or "Somolian" or "Canadian" in front of it, IT'S ASIAN! Ju Jutsu is Ju Jutsu, Karate is karate, period. It originated from Japan.
The only exception here I can think of is wrestling, as styles of wrestling differ from one style to the next enough to make a clear distinction. Maybe because wrestling is a general martial art, probably the oldest general form alive. There are different forms within kung-fu and silat, but they also all share some common principals that define them as kung fu or silat. The same goes for karate to a lesser extent.
Real non-Asian martial arts are like capoeira, krav maga, arte del abbracciare, lua, savate, nubian wrestling, laganza (Native American, Apache to be more specific). Those are examples, they are home grown, they were built from the ground up without stealing to take a short cut. But this is just my input. If someone wants to learn a foreign style, great, no problem,but don't claim it as their own!

Snake

[BoarSpear]

Well said! If you removed all the frauds the phone book would weigh alot less!
Try and count all the Grand Masters, 10th degree bbs ect ect in the yellow pages. go on ebay and buy a title or software to create all your own paperwork to be whatever you can make up! Its all marketing your daycare center or fitness club or worse. Thats why the bs arts grow they are all that is available unless you are incredibly lucky or know someone who trains underground somewhere. if they have to create all the trappings they probably dont have anything of substance to offer anyway. Dont show me your glory wall of all the paperwork and photo ops you went to... get your butt on the floor of the school and show me what you can teach me (dont care about the stuff i cant see or do because its so secret) what will you / can you do? enough already people this bs has allowed the sports to invade the martial arts, and in some cases sadly you can get a better self defense base learning a sport that at least exchanges blows albiet with rules than at a school supposedly teaching Martial
(WAR) arts WTF people.

[1bad65]

Yup, those Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys are all frauds. Just for laughs go to the nearest BJJ academy and tell the instructor that, better yet, interrupt a class and do it in front of everyone. Don't worry, after all it's just a room full of frauds right?

Dude, I never once said a bbj fighter couldn't fight. I even said that the Gracies were awesome fighters. So don't be dumb. What I said was "Brazilian" ju jutsu is just ju jutsu, they stole it from japan, made a few basrely noticeable changes, and claimed it as their own. In other words it's not original, it's theft. Ju Jutsu is Ju Jutsu, reguardless if they wann *claim* that it's Brazilian, Nordic, German, Swahili, or wtf, it's JU JUTSU, it's rightfully JAPANESE, NOT BRAZILIAN. Can you understand that?
"BBJ" fighter are just ju jutsu fighters, it's not a Brazilian style. Fake teachers steal martial arts and change one or two small details that you would barely even notice and reclaim it as theirs. It's not theirs, Ju Jutsu is Japanese, not Brazilian. Is this marinating any?
If Brazilians want their own martial art, they probably already have a few that they keep amoung themselves but if not then they should create their own. If somebody wants to train in a foreign style that's fine, but they shouldn't say that their culture owns it. That's an injustice to Japan, and quite frankly, a slap in the face of Japanese culture.
So once again, lemme explain this:
HERE ARE SOME *REAL* EXAMPLES OF NON-ASIAN MARTIAL ARTS:
1. savate
2. kampfringen
3. Capoiera
4. Krav Maga
5. Nubian Wrestling
6. Boxing
7. Dambe Boxing
Do you see a theme? Theyr all home-grown, this means they didn't take an art from Japan or China, twirk it up alittle, and say it was theirs. The one's I named above were owned by the peoples' who created them. Now, look at the following:
1. Brazilian Ju Jutsu
2. Native American Kenpo
3. American Kenpo

You get the idea, right? There are hundreds of them. But they are all hi-jacked and repolished, but theyr still the same martial art that originally belonged to someone else, the Japanese in this case. People are also known to steal forms of kung fu.
Like I said, if they wanna learn karate or ju jutsu and their not japanese, or they wanna learn kung fu and theyr not chinese, this is fine. That is not a problem. It only becomes a problem when all these "Great teachers" steal the martial art by decorating it with thier personal culture and reclaiming it as their own. That's when it becomes a problem.
This is why the Asian cultures didn't initially want their martial arts to spread around the world, for this very reason. This is why Bruce Lee was outcasted by large groups of his people back in China for expanding the martial arts outside of Asia.

Peoples are already skittish about sharing their martial traditions, they usually consider it an important part of their culture. Look at Japan, when Bruce Lee brought MA to America and the West, and the rest of the world. The triads wacked him and his son! it is important that when sharing martial arts traditions from one culture to another, to respect that culture.

[Sensei Saki]

All of them?Sorry my eye is not attached right now.Tell me more."Tell me again what is going on" when sharing martial arts traditions from one culture to another to respect that culture ?
I understand.

[eXcessiveForce]

Don't believe all the movies. Bruce didn't bring martial arts to the west and he wasn't whacked by triads.

[BoarSpear]

Amen
Well said! If you removed all the frauds the phone book would weigh alot less!
Try and count all the Grand Masters, 10th degree bbs ect ect in the yellow pages. go on ebay and buy a title or software to create all your own paperwork to be whatever you can make up! Its all marketing your daycare center or fitness club or worse. Thats why the bs arts grow they are all that is available unless you are incredibly lucky or know someone who trains underground somewhere. if they have to create all the trappings they probably dont have anything of substance to offer anyway. Dont show me your glory wall of all the paperwork and photo ops you went to... get your butt on the floor of the school and show me what you can teach me (dont care about the stuff i cant see or do because its so secret) what will you / can you do? enough already people this bs has allowed the sports to invade the martial arts, and in some cases sadly you can get a better self defense base learning a sport that at least exchanges blows albiet with rules than at a school supposedly teaching Martial
(WAR) arts WTF people. I REPOSTED this since it disappeared for awhile....

[LoneHusky]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Yup, those Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys are all frauds. Just for laughs go to the nearest BJJ academy and tell the instructor that, better yet, interrupt a class and do it in front of everyone. Don't worry, after all it's just a room full of frauds right?

great idea

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

Yup, those Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys are all frauds. Just for laughs go to the nearest BJJ academy and tell the instructor that, better yet, interrupt a class and do it in front of everyone. Don't worry, after all it's just a room full of frauds right?

...."Many scholars regards Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Kosen Judo to be more closed related to the Kodokan Judo before World War II than current international judo as it is presented by the Kodokan itself".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo


In other words BJJ is more like traditional Kodokan Judo than so called "Olympic" style Judo is.

Japanese school kids played this stuff when Helio was still a babe...

[BeingAtOne]

I think this post is actually pretty good i can sort of see both sides in this i mean i have a question though which country is JKD or MMA classified under?

[1bad65]

I was being kinda smart *ss on my last post. Honestly there is a good discussion of this in the other thread of the same name. The original post had some merit, but the main disagreement I had was that it is a BIG difference between traditional Japanese JJ and Brazilian JJ. At the last BJJ tourny I was at a JJJ guy competed in it. He wore a green belt and competed in the white belt division. He went up against one of our guys. Our guy was around 15lbs smaller and had done BJJ less than six months. The JJJ guy got schooled bad.

One time someone asked our BJJ instructor what the diference between JJJ and BJJ was, he laughed and said 'well BJJ works'. They both use joint locks, chokes, etc; just BJJ likes to do them from the ground since it is alot easier for a small man to control a big man on the ground compared to standing up.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by Snake137

Dude, I never once said a bbj fighter couldn't fight. I even said that the Gracies were awesome fighters. So don't be dumb. What I said was "Brazilian" j(i)u-j(i)tsu is just ju jutsu, they stole it from japan, made a few basrely noticeable changes, and claimed it as their own. In other words it's not original, it's theft. Ju Jutsu is Ju Jutsu, reguardless if they wann *claim* that it's Brazilian, Nordic, German, Swahili, or wtf, it's JU JUTSU, it's rightfully JAPANESE, NOT BRAZILIAN. Can you understand that?
"BBJ" fighter are just ju jutsu fighters, it's not a Brazilian style. Fake teachers steal martial arts and change one or two small details that you would barely even notice and reclaim it as theirs. It's not theirs, Ju Jutsu is Japanese, not Brazilian. ...
.....



......

This is part of the problem, perpetuating the fraud with words like "fighter"... and Ju-jutsu.... It's just Judo, Kosen (high school) newaza, not Ju-jutsu.

The competition part of the art (whatever you call it) is a sport or a game, the participants are PLAYERS not "fighters." They agree to the contest and receive prizes, awards or prestige for a victory.

The subtle changes that we barely notice are not in technique or uniform or the name of a game, they're not even in the rules or the fighting theory itself. The changes are in the "history" and marketing.

The great Jiu-Jitsu fighters are just Judo players...


The sad part is when defenders of a style jump in to protest the validity of an alternate point of view (argument) with strong emotion and zero facts.

[Tant01]

Originally Posted by 1bad65

.... the main disagreement I had was that it is a BIG difference between traditional Japanese JJ and Brazilian JJ......

One time someone asked our BJJ instructor what the diference between JJJ and BJJ was, he laughed and said 'well BJJ works'. They both use joint locks, chokes, etc; just BJJ likes to do them from the ground since it is alot easier for a small man to control a big man on the ground compared to standing up.

Traditional JJJ did not have colored belts to identify rank. That was Kano's idea...Traditional JJJ did not have randori as we know it, again thank Kano sensei. BJJ is not ju-jutsu at all... it's just JUDO(kosen newaza)!! Look at the uniform? The training methods were developed at the Kodokan and imported to Brazil by a Judoka.


While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties. While the old schools taught nothing but practice, the modern Judo gives the theoretical explanation of the doctrine, at the same time giving the practical a no less important place.

T. Shidachi, 1892

[waL1141570]

Hello noce forum