What Happened To The Gracies?

[stusskilla]

The Gracie name used to be legendary, and now, their losing all of their fights, or boring us to death trying to win a judges decision. So I'll tell you what happened. The Gracies let the world in on all their jiu jitsu secrets on video tape trying to make a buck, So now every joe average can learn to be a Gracie, and if they know how to strike, they'll be better than a Gracie. Take Evan Tanner for instance, he was a good striker and learned jiu-jitsu through the Gracie videos, and now he could beat the Gracies pretty handily. Now all the Gracies are just relying on good old Rickson to be captain saveaho. It seems the only guy who the Gracies can beat is Takada. Well congradulations Gracies, You gave away the secret recipe and now everyone uses it.
-stusskilla-

[Bahala Na]

That's the danger of refusing to grow. Rorion went way out on a limb several years ago and said that the Gracie method was its own complete method for Jiujutsu, and when he did that, he did it to the exclusion of all of the great ideas and innovations that would follow in years to come. I think that's probably one of the reasons Rickson broke away, and probably one of the reasons he's still the best around. America has always been a place of innovation and improvement, and that's what happened. Gracie Jiujutsu was made better by the pool of people who developed a passion for it. I've met Royce, and I think he's a great guy, but honestly, where would he be if he'd let go of all that "this is Gracie and that isn't..." stuff and kept building on what he had?
Mike

[vortrex]

you think evan tanner can beat royce or renzo???

[Mr. Miyagi]

Evan Tanner would beat the crap out of Royce just like he did to Joe Pardo. I believe that he would beat Renzo by a decision also.

[vortrex]

well...joe pardo is not royce, that's for sure!

since royce has THE best defense in the business, how is evan going to beat him? submit him with the tricks learned from the tape? heh.

[Andrew]

So the Gracie's get beaten these days. What have all the people who have beaten them got in common?
Thats right, they all have adopted Gracie techniques and concepts over there own antiquated styles.
So despite the L's in the column, in the big picture, who is really winning?
The Gracies have changed the way that we see the fighting arts forever, and they still have not been beaten by an outside style.

[Oldskulbus]

Have you ever seen the Gracie videos Stusskilla? They did not give away any secrets.

[Mako]

I'm with OSB... no way are the Gracie's (Torrance) giving away any big secrets in their video series. They are very good, but very basic. Besides, how in the world are you going to beat someone at their own game, with the techniques they are willing to "give" you?

The bigger danger for them (Torrance) were people who were teaching everything.. not holding back. (i.e. Carlson Gracie Team, Machados,etc.)

Andrew,
Do you really believe that? If so, do you own the
GJJ Leather Bomber jacket too?

[Bahala Na]

Everyone keeps bringing up the Gracie videos as a point of interest, but OSB has a great point. Those videos not only didn't teach anything all that fantastic, but the stuff they did teach was taught with more steps and less flow than they ever needed, so even if you study the tapes in depth, you'd be doing the techniques a little sloppy. However, the Gracies did change the way we all look at fighting, and they have made millions on it (and the Gjj leather bomber jackets )SO I guess in the grand scheme of things, their bankroll puts them ahead. But no matter how rich you are, it still sucks getting your butt kicked.
Mike

[Tony10]

What's the big mystery here?

As innovations and evolution occur to BJJ, it's inevitable others would surpass the Gracies in fighting skill.

That's a good thing.

[Badger]

I believe Sakuraba is the only fighter to actually beat the Gracies in NHB-Is there anyone else?



-Badger

[Lacrymosa]

I know I'll probably step on a few toes, but here goes:

Everyone is talking about the great "innovations" in the martial arts world, but are we really aware of what we are saying? Name one great "innovation" that has risen since the emergence of the Gracies.

The wrestling takedown? Already in the Gracie arsenal.
The "hybrid" approach? Shamrock brought it to the first UFC....and most of the Gracies aren't afraid to punch or kick.
"Ground and Pound"? What steriod freak WOULDN'T try to knock someone out in the guard? Tom Erickson or Mark Coleman couldn't do much more against someone with a good guard.

The truth is, the Gracies brought an approach to fighting that was truly innovative.....and that fighting blueprint hasn't deviated much since the fighting world saw UFC I. Think about how fighters behave in certain insances:

1. Almost all will go for the mount on top.
2. Almost all will try a choke from the back mount.
3. Even Randy Couture will try an armbar.

Evolution?....More like "adaptation". Everyone is benefitting from the example that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has made for the MMA world. Why then doesn't BJJ win every match? Since every successful fighter in the galaxy has at least acquainted himself with Jiu Jitsu, the answer should be obvious. Larger and more naturally gifted athletes (with similar approaches to the game) are taking center stage.

If the MMA world is truly evolving like many suggest, we would be seeing an alternate approach that distinguishes itself from the original mold. Aside from pulling Royce's pants down, how different does Sakuraba's techniques look in comparison to a BJJ fighter? From what I've seen, not much.

[Bahala Na]

The innovation is that nobody cared about the ground game until the gracie family came along. Wrestlers had been wrestling, shoot fighters had been shooting, and while all that was fine and good, nobody gave a damn. The dim mak or some other BS move was enough to stop a grappler. Since the Gracies, everybody has "discovered" the "secret grappling art" hidden withing their system. Even Shotokan guys are on the ground now! The Gracies showed us all how important that range is, and without them and their efforts, everyone would still be looking at wrestlers and saying "I don't care." I would dare to say that this particular forum would not exist save for the direct efforts of the Gracies in bringing NHB fighting into the mainstream of martial arts. If that's not an innovation, I don't know what is. Sure, others have improved on what they started, but the fact remains that, they started it!
Mike

[Lacrymosa]

For now, I would contend that the last significant innovation in the martial arts came from the Gracies.

[Tony10]

Hey, Lac:

I meant "innovation" in that once they brought their great innovation (which nobody can deny) to the world, others have built upon it, created counters to it, refined it even further.

You can't say BJJ and NHB hasn't evolved since their early UFC heydey... there's lots of new techniques coming out of Brazil constantly (beyond what they teach in Torrance), and whatever you say about Sak, he's definitely--at the very least--come up some damn effective counters to BJJ, if you consider that an innovation. Hell, he's beat four of them... he's on to something.

I'm saying that what they pioneered--if that's the term--was obviously valid because it continues to evolve to this day. If everybody were still practicing BJJ and the known techniques as they were around UFC1 and thinking "this is all I need to know," then, well--you get the idea...

It's inevitable that somebody's going to come along and figure out how to do it better...