So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[Uke]

Here are the Top 10 facts about BJJ that have been brought to light that have you acting like a child:


10. you only fight grapplers.

9. you only fight people who are your own size, and if they're bigger they have much less skill and experience.

8. you have no weapon skills whatsoever.

7. you feel validated in pretending that BJJ covers everything because you have a flock of cheerleaders with you that say the same thing.

6. Even watching Rickson Gracie, Rigan Machado or Antonio Nogueira, you'll see that they all go to the guard, have little to no stand up skills and their striking is no where near proficient. And they are the cream of the crop in BJJ.

5. you refuse to admit that the guard is what enables smaller, weaker bjj men to defeat a larger, stronger man when all things are equal(skill). But all of your excuses have been "Most guys in the street have no grappling skills". How do you know that? Another example of how you and your cheerleading friends take the word of someone else for that instead of finding out for yourself.

4. you make pretend that multiple attackers are a myth. Most fights are NOT one on one in any city, and anyone who's been in a real fight knows that. So do the Gracies, and that's why they travel in groups of 15. All you'd have to do is watch "Gracie in Action" to see the truth.

3. as BoarSpear pointed out, BJJ comes directly from judo, a sport art that came from the TMA jujitsu, but all the lethal and dangerous techniques were removed by Kano. Maeda taught the Gracies judo, a sport art, but they supposedly made it street effective? Even though Helio was defeated by a man using sport judo? The Gracies seem to have documented EVERYTHING! They even taped Rickson's fight on the beach against Hugo Duarte! Yet there is not one shred of evidence that they have ever fought in a street fight against weapons or more than one guy. EVER. And even in that fight against Duarte, Rickson has 10 or more guys with him. Face it, the BJJ reputation was built off sport matches, otherwise they would have shown some street matches, or even just 1 in their documentaries.

Let me guess your response: The Gracies are brazilian ninjas and cannot show their TRUE skills to the world.

2. please explain to me how someone with no DISARMING experience at all is going to get an attacker with a knife against the wall if he's accosted at knife-point. You can't expect to improvise with no previous disarming training and live. You're going to get sliced and stabbed to death. And to say that street punks don't know how to use weapons is a idiotic remark. In the Phillipines, arnis is practiced by criminals everyday, and the crime there is outrageous. And even if you had a weapon, against another man who trains with a weapon you wouldn't have a chance.

*I'm sure the arnis/escrima/kali practitioners would be very interested to read a response to #2.

And the #1 fact that this thread brought to light is that NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY VICTORIES ON YOUR FEET. So you have no business talking about stand up skills.

Many people here have given BJJ fans evidence of these facts, and all you do is offer the assurances from your instructors that your skills will transition to any range. The Dog Brothers have open tournaments every year. Why don't some of you go unarmed to one of their events and see how well you do against a rattan stick, let alone a knife. Please take pictures and video to post on the site.

And if after all that you still don't understand, just go click the link that BoarSpear provided on the topic "Why BJJ is the ultimare martial art".

BoarSpear, that was some funny sh!t.

[jubaji]

Who is the "you" you keep referring to?

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by Uke

Here are the Top 10 facts about BJJ that have been brought to light that have you acting like a child:


10. you only fight grapplers.

9. you only fight people who are your own size, and if they're bigger they have much less skill and experience.

8. you have no weapon skills whatsoever.

7. you feel validated in pretending that BJJ covers everything because you have a flock of cheerleaders with you that say the same thing.

6. Even watching Rickson Gracie, Rigan Machado or Antonio Nogueira, you'll see that they all go to the guard, have little to no stand up skills and their striking is no where near proficient. And they are the cream of the crop in BJJ.

5. you refuse to admit that the guard is what enables smaller, weaker bjj men to defeat a larger, stronger man when all things are equal(skill). But all of your excuses have been "Most guys in the street have no grappling skills". How do you know that? Another example of how you and your cheerleading friends take the word of someone else for that instead of finding out for yourself.

4. you make pretend that multiple attackers are a myth. Most fights are NOT one on one in any city, and anyone who's been in a real fight knows that. So do the Gracies, and that's why they travel in groups of 15. All you'd have to do is watch "Gracie in Action" to see the truth.

3. as BoarSpear pointed out, BJJ comes directly from judo, a sport art that came from the TMA jujitsu, but all the lethal and dangerous techniques were removed by Kano. Maeda taught the Gracies judo, a sport art, but they supposedly made it street effective? Even though Helio was defeated by a man using sport judo? The Gracies seem to have documented EVERYTHING! They even taped Rickson's fight on the beach against Hugo Duarte! Yet there is not one shred of evidence that they have ever fought in a street fight against weapons or more than one guy. EVER. And even in that fight against Duarte, Rickson has 10 or more guys with him. Face it, the BJJ reputation was built off sport matches, otherwise they would have shown some street matches, or even just 1 in their documentaries.

Let me guess your response: The Gracies are brazilian ninjas and cannot show their TRUE skills to the world.

2. please explain to me how someone with no DISARMING experience at all is going to get an attacker with a knife against the wall if he's accosted at knife-point. You can't expect to improvise with no previous disarming training and live. You're going to get sliced and stabbed to death. And to say that street punks don't know how to use weapons is a idiotic remark. In the Phillipines, arnis is practiced by criminals everyday, and the crime there is outrageous. And even if you had a weapon, against another man who trains with a weapon you wouldn't have a chance.

*I'm sure the arnis/escrima/kali practitioners would be very interested to read a response to #2.

And the #1 fact that this thread brought to light is that NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY VICTORIES ON YOUR FEET. So you have no business talking about stand up skills.

Many people here have given BJJ fans evidence of these facts, and all you do is offer the assurances from your instructors that your skills will transition to any range. The Dog Brothers have open tournaments every year. Why don't some of you go unarmed to one of their events and see how well you do against a rattan stick, let alone a knife. Please take pictures and video to post on the site.

And if after all that you still don't understand, just go click the link that BoarSpear provided on the topic "Why BJJ is the ultimare martial art".

BoarSpear, that was some funny sh!t.

Dude great post... a friend sent me the links to these fights...thanks dude you know who you are

your voice of reason is appreciated by all.....NOT eeerr most, uh, some aaahh no, thats probably to strong a word also well anyway thanks

[Garland]

Originally Posted by jubaji

Who is the "you" you keep referring to?

Judo know ju?
Judo, don ju?

heheheh

[LoneHusky]

Some good points Uke but the Gracies have been in streetfights and have documented underground fights that are basically streetfights without weapons.

[LoneHusky]

Originally Posted by Garland

Judo know ju?
Judo, don ju?

heheheh

Mexican Judo=Judo know if I gotta gun, Judo know if I gotta knife.

[gregimotis]

And the #1 fact that this thread brought to light is that NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY VICTORIES ON YOUR FEET. So you have no business talking about stand up skills.

If this is the #1 fact,then I'm sure you are going to retract your whole argument when you learn that....


I HAVE 'VICTORIES' ON MY FEET. Also, I have stand up skills.


Do you have any BJJ experience? If the answer is no, then by your own reasoning you haven't got any business talking about - well - this whole thread. (remember, 'I heard about...' and 'I know this guy who...' don't count as experience)



I think it's worth pointing out that you started the thread, and your thread was not about stand-up fighting, it was about BJJ. Therefore, you shouldn't really complain when we discuss BJJ aws it relates to self defense... that being subject of the thread...

[medic06]

Originally Posted by LoneHusky

Some good points Uke but the Gracies have been in streetfights and have documented underground fights that are basically streetfights without weapons.

so the Gracies had a sports commentator and stenographer on hand?

[Uke]

Originally Posted by gregimotis

If this is the #1 fact,then I'm sure you are going to retract your whole argument when you learn that....


I HAVE 'VICTORIES' ON MY FEET. Also, I have stand up skills.


Do you have any BJJ experience? If the answer is no, then by your own reasoning you haven't got any business talking about - well - this whole thread. (remember, 'I heard about...' and 'I know this guy who...' don't count as experience)



I think it's worth pointing out that you started the thread, and your thread was not about stand-up fighting, it was about BJJ. Therefore, you shouldn't really complain when we discuss BJJ aws it relates to self defense... that being subject of the thread...

I have trained in BJJ, as most people here have. Its been intergrated it into most training since the early 90's. And I have written that on this topic. The difference with me is that before I started BJJ, I was already in the self defence mindset. And anyone who is looks to intergrate it in as an effective piece of a whole. My posts on this entire thread are my experiences with BJJ and the conclusions that I as well as many training partners and teachers have come to in those attempts to intergrate it. In our opinion, its better suited for defense against submissions and chokes, escapes from the guard and mount and getting back to your feet.

Now, what BJJ technique did you use to defeat your opponent while you were standing up on your feet? I'm VERY curious about this, and the level of training your opponents had, if any. If you're a bouncer and you escort a drunk outside and choke him out, that's not a fight, so it wouldn't count.

And about these stand up skills you have, are they BJJ? If not, then you're using another discipline and not BJJ. If so, please elaborate as you have discovered the missing link in BJJ that has eluded even the top players like Rickson Gracie, Rigan Machado and Antonio Noguiera.

And by the way, even if you legitimately do have victories on your feet, you are the exception. And in a situation where a capable someone is intent on hurting you, I doubt(but will be willing to witness) that you will be able to use what the world has seen of BJJ thus far effectively enough to earn a victory on your feet. PERIOD.

Its funny, my friend pulled out a tape of Rodriguez vs Nogueira, a match in which Nogueira clearly lost. He kept going to the guard as if his life depended on it. And it did, because clearly he had no other way to survive. On that same card, we watched Murillo Bustamante get beat by Quinton Jackson. And Jackson wasn't even close to using BJJ. Just good ole fashioned aggression. The way he picked Bustamante up while in his guard and slammed him is a perfect example of what we've been speaking about in terms of street effectiveness. Had there been a fire hydrant or even a curb nearby he would have been more than a little hurt. Not to mention the fact that Jackson was punching him throughout the match. So if Jackson was able to land many punches and pick up Bustamante and throw him with ease, why would Jackson stabbing him in a street situation be so hard to believe? If a punch can touch you, why can't a knife?

So in closing, out of 10 you replied to 1, and even then you said you won, but you didn't say using BJJ. And you neglected to tell us what BJJ technique you used and against who. It certainly was not against anyone who outweighed you by more than 30lbs and who could strike competently. You wouldn't stand a chance against a boxer who knew how to sprawl unless you went to your guard... AND QUICK.

[LoneHusky]

Originally Posted by medic06

so the Gracies had a sports commentator and stenographer on hand?

it's a Brazilian thing.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by LoneHusky

Some good points Uke but the Gracies have been in streetfights and have documented underground fights that are basically streetfights without weapons.

Where's the documentation? Gracies in Action 1 & 2? Choke aka "the Rickson Gracie story"? Or those silly tapes by Renzo and Craig Kukuk? And who the hell travels with a camcorder EVERYWHERE they go? You mean to tell me that when a spontaneous encounter happens where violence erupts, the Gracies just happen to have a camcorder on hand? And we're talking waaay before camera phones! If that doesn't seem a bit orchestrated to everyone then I've got a moneytree to sell you.

See, the keyword here is "underground". You gotta love that word "underground". It gives the illusion of being credible while at the same time it attempts to explain why no one has heard of it, or can find it, or it isn't mainstream. And how in the hell are all the fights without weapons? I have friends from Brazil and they ALL say the crime there is terrible. People get stabbed and shot there every single day. But the Gracies manage to avoid weapons EVERY SINGLE TIME? I've gotten into fights in the projects in Brooklyn, and several times weapons were produced. I guess they're just lucky, huh?

[LoneHusky]

Originally Posted by Uke

Where's the documentation? Gracies in Action 1 & 2? Choke aka "the Rickson Gracie story"? Or those silly tapes by Renzo and Craig Kukuk? And who the hell travels with a camcorder EVERYWHERE they go? You mean to tell me that when a spontaneous encounter happens where violence erupts, the Gracies just happen to have a camcorder on hand? And we're talking waaay before camera phones! If that doesn't seem a bit orchestrated to everyone then I've got a moneytree to sell you.

See, the keyword here is "underground". You gotta love that word "underground". It gives the illusion of being credible while at the same time it attempts to explain why no one has heard of it, or can find it, or it isn't mainstream. And how in the hell are all the fights without weapons? I have friends from Brazil and they ALL say the crime there is terrible. People get stabbed and shot there every single day. But the Gracies manage to avoid weapons EVERY SINGLE TIME? I've gotten into fights in the projects in Brooklyn, and several times weapons were produced. I guess they're just lucky, huh?

Damn your just a pissy lil bitch aren't Uke. You seem like a cocky prick too. They've been in many street fights and have helped weapons fighters a great deal. A black market video of Royler Gracie fighting a Brazilian Luta-Livre fighter was released in the US if you watched that I think you'd shut your fat lil prepubesent mouth. You assumed they havn't fought weapons fighter without having any knowledge.....at all. It's not all as cut and dry as you like to imply dumbass. Go back to your ghetto in Brooklyn and practice your gothic nut hugging martial arts. I know it's you asshole.

[Tom Yum]

Originally Posted by Uke

You might have a point, Tom Yum. My attitude may alienate people, but not intentionally. Besides, I am not here to gain a following. Your post, for the most part, agrees with what I have been saying. So if you believe what I said to be true and you feel that you are more diplomatic that I am, then maybe you should should be writing the same messages here for those who can only receive information through sensative and caring dialogue.

You've specifically focused on the dangers of jumping to guard, a sports BJJ tactic, while in a street situation against someone with a weapon or against multiple attackers. And the short coming of BJJ training against weapons.

That can be summed up in one to two sentences, minus all the over the top attitude.

If you're not here to gain a following, but are harshly critical of sports BJJ training as self-defense, sounds to me like you have something important to tell.

So get on with it. Let's get this discussion moving onto your recommendation.

This is the time and place to talk about progressive combat ideas and if you have something to share or something new, let's hear it.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by Tom Yum

You've specifically focused on the dangers of jumping to guard, a sports BJJ tactic, while in a street situation against someone with a weapon or against multiple attackers. And the short coming of BJJ training against weapons.

Exactly Tom, its the danger of putting yourself on the ground in ANY position, when you dont know for sure that opponent does not have a weapon, and outside the ring i believe its rare indeed when you know that for a fact.

I am NOT saying it doesnt have its place, but it is never my first instinct, the ground is death to a warrior...you may find yourself there because of MR MURPHY...but you should use that training to get the hell up or avoid being taken down in the first place.

[Tom Yum]

I agree with you and Uke about staying on the ground too long as a strategy. I'm just waiting to here Uke's suggestion about combat strategy.

Something else to consider, grappling is a pretty loose term. Some people train in judo, some in free-style or folk wrestling, many in BJJ and others grappling hybrids (submission wrestling, chin-na, shuai jiao, aikijitsu, sambo). Not all of these arts build their strategy around the guard; some seek to get control of an arm, maybe a leg; some seek to set up a clinch or get control of the head or hips.

You can never underestimate an expert grappler. There are instructors and competitors who can get heavier, stronger and experienced people on the ground pretty quick and pretty hard.

As you've both stated though, lots of BJJ classes train like sport BJJ.