So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[cam427]

Uke,

I dont know how you can be so sure about what someone from an art you have never studied would do. What if the BJJ guy gripped the other guys arms, threw him to the ground (BJJ has throws), jumped on his head and then ran away. These are all BJJ moves (anyone can stomp someones head).

I don't think your point was that no one could win that exercise. You were using that example to prove that BJJ was useless in a real situation.

I do think that cross training is the best approach (I do it myself) but I don't think someone who does not understand a particular style and what it involves should say it is useless.

Also I think your "statistics" about how long fights last and how long it takes for a BJJ fighter to finish a fight are no more valid than the BJJ claim the 90% of fights go to the ground.

I have trained with several BJJ guys who finished me in seconds. I have seen "real" fights last seconds and others last minutes.

Cam

[gregimotis]

Uke, You came into the BJJ form; posted that BJJ is no good for self defense; then tried to prove it with some trumped-up no-win scenario. In other words, you started this moronic argument all by yourself.

-My first post presented an alternate scenario which is just as likely to occur as yours, in which BJJ is effective.
-My second post pointed out the silliness of the entire 'which style is the greatest for self-defense' debate.
-Many of the other posters on here correctly pointed out that your scenario is no-win for just about anybody regardless of training.



I'm going to start another thread right now - everybody who wants to talk about BJJ and self-defense in a productive way, follow me on over...

[Uke]

Originally Posted by Uke

I've said this before and I'll say it again ... If you are going to study BJJ, study it to learn the fastest ways to ESCAPE the guard and the mount, and how to reverse submissions and chokes. That is the real value of BJJ: Knowing how to get OFF OF THE GROUND the fastest way possible, and back into a self defense situation, not a bout that wastes precious time that you could be using to end the fight and escape.

- Uke

So I was saying BJJ is useless in a real situation? So I guess in my very first post I didn't state the above? It appears to me that you haven't read the posts, and are just commenting on what you "think" I mean.

Also, I have already stated that BJJ has no effective stand up self defense. And if you think that in a fight that you're going to "grip the guy's arm" and throw him with no resistence, then you have a long way to go, my friend.

Taking BJJ for 3 years and opening a school does not make one a master by any means. Nor does entering pseudo UFC events make you experienced about what a real fight will be like.

I've seen skilless guys last for more than a minute, so that says something about your skill level.

[hEmPY]

I get UK's point. Wrestlin suck on street.

[cam427]

Once again you seem to have a complete misunderstanding of how things actually work. Just because I said that I would grip someones arms and throw him automatically means there is no resistance

Have you ever heard of Judo / Wrestling. These guys throw each other and I dont think anyone is "letting" anyone do anything.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of what works and as far as a beginner lasting more than one minute surely that would depend on who he was fighting. I didn't say I couldn't last a minute against anyone. I said that there were people who could beat me in seconds which is true of everyone. Would you last a minute against Rickson Gracie (I am sure you can make up some crap knife scenario where you would beat him).

You seem to take a lot of trouble to point out when people are not paying enough attention to the details you have written but make general (false) statements about everything written by anyone else.

Cam

[danfaggella]

i love bjj but i dont take it too seriously. in a REAL street fight you are more likely to use eye gouges and groin kneeing on the ground than you are achilles locks or kimuras. a real fight, life or death, would have many many variables on the ground, granted a good BJJ man you work well on the ground you must be versed in technique out of the sport, technique that is REALLY NHB. ground fighting in a real street fight IS sketchy, becuase the other guy has his fingers going fro your eyes as well, and sport practicioners wouldn't know how to defend that or the other various survival moves an attacker (even if not a martial artist) may be throwing at you.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

in a REAL street fight you are more likely to use eye gouges . ground fighting in a real street fight IS sketchy, becuase the other guy has his fingers going fro your eyes as well, and sport practicioners wouldn't know how to defend that or the other various survival moves an attacker (even if not a martial artist) may be throwing at you.

Ugh, not this old shit again...

[danfaggella]

shit you say?

im not devalidating grappling as it is practiced. but OBVIOUSLY if you were going to DIE you would need significant knowledge in things that are and always have been "against the rules". These things should come to mind in a real fight, they should be tought in grappling schools, however, sparing with eye gouging and biting legal is not very productive. BJJ is obviously effective but REAL FIGHTS add in many variables. However, it is likely that all the skill developed from sparing, learning, and watching/reading will carry over into a real fight, weather you be a kickboxer or a grappler, you are better off than the average Joe on the street.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by gregimotis

Uke, You came into the BJJ form; posted that BJJ is no good for self defense; then tried to prove it with some trumped-up no-win scenario. In other words, you started this moronic argument all by yourself.

-My first post presented an alternate scenario which is just as likely to occur as yours, in which BJJ is effective.
-My second post pointed out the silliness of the entire 'which style is the greatest for self-defense' debate.
-Many of the other posters on here correctly pointed out that your scenario is no-win for just about anybody regardless of training.

1) I have yet to see anyone give a scenario where BJJ would be effective unless it was in a rule based enviroment.

2) I've never said what style was the best. Maybe you have, but I haven't. Have we even talked about any other style on this topic other than BJJ? I don't think so, and I didn't because I'm not sitting here promoting another style over BJJ. I was discussing what the practical use for BJJ is, and what it is not.

3)Absolutely. It is a no win. That was the point from the beginning. But its only a no win because you're starting in the position that most BJJ bouts go to: the guard. I don't care if you feel that this is silly. Its your opinion, and you're entitled to it. As I've said before and YOU ignore: Rickson, Royce, Renzo and Royler Gracie, Rigan Machado and Antonio Nogueira ALL WIND UP IN THE GUARD WHEN STRONG AGGRESSION IS THROWN AT THEM. Now if the best wind up in the guard, how do you think you'll do better?

If you flip the scenario it would be: A guy takes a swing at you or shoots in on you while his 2 friends are coming from the other side of the field. Most people who have trained could handle that situation with enough time to escape the 2 friends. And if the marker came out, you're already on your feet and can run. If you couldn't run for whatever reason, you'd have 100% a better chance using disarm techniques on your feet than you would on your back.

So the scenario is not impossible, just impossible if you're a BJJ guy and started grappling. But you and many other posters have unwittingly proven my point already. When we discuss an attack, you've all used "crosstraining" as a stock answer as to how you'd respond to that attack, which just reiterated what I have been saying: BJJ is not a style for self defense. It's value lies in learning how to escape the guard and mount and get on your feet the fastest way possible, and learning how to reverse submissions and chokes.

Many of you have said I have made silly assumptions that you'd only use BJJ, which is funny because that's what I have been telling everyone NOT to do. The minute you start western boxing, muay thai kicking, kneeing and elbowing, you're no longer doing BJJ. The solution to this debate is that many of you need to know what you're practicing. Just because you train in BJJ doesn't make every other thing that you do BJJ.

[dkm]

Originally Posted by Uke

Thank you for your comments and for the respectful way in which you replied.

I don't know what situations you've been in, but I as well as many other people that I've trained with have been in fights against more than one person. And have won. Just not in the pretty, choreographed manner in which Steven Segal does in the movies. Real self defense isn't pretty and flowery. And anyone who has used it outside of competition will know that. But the point of it is to control an attacker and his weapon/hand before taking him out, which shouldn't take long as your attack should come as a surprise.

Now, if you're saying multiple attackers, and they ALL have weapons, well you pretty much better run, or at least take one out and use the "hostage"
method to get out. I'm not saying that anyone is going to beat a room full of guys that all have weapons. Those were not my words at any point.

But let me clarify the scenarios: Self defense situations don't last more than 10 seconds, while 99.9% of all of BJJ take more than a minute to a couple of minutes. The goal of self defense is to end an altercation, while the goal of BJJ is to tie your man up, get a superior position and either submit him or choke him out, and in either case it would take alot more time to do than straight to the point self defense techniques. If there is a knife involved, a trained self defense man knows that he will most likely get cut. But the difference between a self defense man and a BJJ man is the self defense man chooses where he gets cut. When he parrys the knife hand, he goes into this assuming that his arms and hands will get cut. The BJJ man has no choices and will be knifed in organs, the arms and in the face as he rolls around on the ground.

If you think I'm wrong, go use BJJ on someone, AND AS SOON as you begin grappling with them, tell them to use that marker. Afterwards, tell me what you feel more comfortable doing: Dealing with a knife on the floor or on your feet?

Not even against multiple attackers, just one with a knife.

Again, thanks for the response.

I still don't understand what martial art are you recommending

[pstevens]

Uke is obviously an agenda troll who doesn't like BJJ. BTW Uke, did you try your experiment with some guy without any grappling experience? I wonder how many times he would have been stabbed? The presented "experiment" wouldn't work in anyone's favor whether it be BJJ, Muay Thai, kung-fu or whatever... And once again, we're presented with the multiple attackers, weapons, etc... What's next, broken glass on the ground? Or the maybe we're fighting spikes...

People seem to think that BJJ guys are a different breed of humans who function after a form... WRONG... We're just as human as everyone else. Pull out a knife and I'll grab the nearest weapon or look for the quickest exit. If I get to Guard, it's by default and I need to get out quick if I suspect danger, but at least I'll know how to get out - that's the trick.

[Uke]

Originally Posted by cam427

Once again you seem to have a complete misunderstanding of how things actually work. Just because I said that I would grip someones arms and throw him automatically means there is no resistance

Have you ever heard of Judo / Wrestling. These guys throw each other and I dont think anyone is "letting" anyone do anything.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of what works and as far as a beginner lasting more than one minute surely that would depend on who he was fighting. I didn't say I couldn't last a minute against anyone. I said that there were people who could beat me in seconds which is true of everyone. Would you last a minute against Rickson Gracie (I am sure you can make up some crap knife scenario where you would beat him).

You seem to take a lot of trouble to point out when people are not paying enough attention to the details you have written but make general (false) statements about everything written by anyone else.

Cam

Its not that I've misunderstood or wrote false statements Cam, its just that you can't read.

I have practiced jujitsu for more than 20 years so yes, I do know about throws. And I've done it long enough to know that no one, not even my masters, can just throw a man, unless he was already off balance or didn't see you coming. Real fights are not shoving matches where one guy just sidesteps and executes throws. This isn't a Steven Segal movie. You are not walking up to a guy who has it in his mind to hurt you and tossing him.

As far as people lasting more than minute, all you'd have to do is watch footage of Rickson or Royce or Nogueira. That's why I brought up Kimo earlier. Kimo had not trained in anything at the time, but gave Royce his most difficult UFC fight at that point. A tough guy who wanted to win beat up Gracie so badly that he couldn't continue. Yes, Kimo lost, but he did prove my point.

To clarify, I never stated that you said you couldn't last a minute against anyone. I responded to you stating "I have trained with several BJJ guys who finished me in seconds." Those are your words, not me misunderstanding them. If you're getting submitted in seconds, but untrained Kimo lasted almsot 5 minutes, that says it all. And while I'm about to assume, I feel safe saying that you were submitted by BJJ players not of Royce's skill level.

If you use the Royce Grace/Kimo match as a modleIf Royce was in my football scenario, he'd have gotten stabbed or stomped to death as well, and he didn't even start from the guard. But like every other top BJJ man 99% of the time, he ended up there.

Thanks for your comments, Little Buddy

[Jimbob]

I absolutely agree BJJ cannot be used in a street fight. If you try to use this against an average person on the street you will be knocked out in seconds. You must keep it short, simple and effective do not let the fight escolate so far that it is taken to the ground. Make every punch, palm strike, eye strike etc... count so that the fight is over there and then. BJJ is good to learn none the less keep your mind open to all martial arts. Although a kick from different styles may conflict one may be more effective In one situation then another vice versa the same applies to BJJ, judo etc.


find the a weakness in your opponent and expoit it my Sihing (instructor) is good at that.
Chi Sao rules lol.

[SamuraiGuy]

Uke,

after my first and only post, you said that there werent any points that you didnt adress... you never adressed mine though.

A man who is by no means a "master" of BJJ, (although he's really fricking good) can literally beat me before I know whats happening.... and by beat me, I mean choking the life out of me or braking my arms.

Sure it takes a few seconds for him to remove the blood from my brain... but in those seconds am I going to be clearly thinking, ok , reach into pocket, withdraw knife, stab this guy.

Ill prolly be thinking, OW MY FUCKING THROAT WHAT THE **** OW

You brought up the fact that in all the grappling matches between the masters they always end up in gaurd, and that in a streetfight, that would happen because all the masters end up their.

I gotta tell you, your right about one thing, the masters do end up in gaurd, because it is the neutral position in BJJ, no one has the clear advantage, its personal preference.... put one of those masters in with a guy with no training, a white belt, a blue belt, a purple belt, watch how long they are in the gaurd, (if their goal is to beat you as quickly as possible).

Someone else, might have been Uke, not sure, brought up eye gouges, kicking in the groin etc, in my last bjj class we practiced a throw... a simple hip throw from judo... now after this particular throw you had the guys arm, and he was on his back/side.... they recommended putting the guy in an armbar or wristlock from there.

With that said, the same guy who can do the armbar/wristlock, would have no problem , dropping his knee on to the guys face, or letting go of the guys arm, or still holding the guys arm, and kicking the guy in the face... you dont need training to kick someone in the face when their on the ground.

If you could adress all these points, and my previous ones I'd like to hear what you have to say, also, please dont just call me a child, or an "arguer" and not a debater... I have valid points and would like an answer not an excuse...

[Jimbob]

very true that when in a choke a person will not think 1 step then 2 steps then etc... They will automatically respond to whatever the person is doing in a brutal way i.e fists. In BJJ there are a lot of throws and locks but you have to think how would you get someone into that position (not in the fight at class). The most likely person who comes up to you on the street will attack with his/her hands In order for you to get your opponent into a lock or hold you must first have one of his/her body parts if this person has martial arts experience (common thing now days) i.e thai boxing, boxing, kickboxer all of these are common martial arts. All it takes is one powerful punch to take you/me/anyone down some people have different thresholds then others but can still be taken down. So this is why BJJ is not effective enough to use in streetfights for the simple reason that its too slow and impractical on a street level. As regard to your other statement of kicking and kneeing someone on the ground true again you can knee and kick someone easily when there on the ground. Getting power into the kick or knee that the problem.




find the a weakness in your opponent and expoit it my Sihing (instructor) is good at that.
Chi Sao rules lol.