BJJ as self defense (can it be done?)

**gregimotis** · 09-21-2005, 11:10 AM

It's pretty clear to everybody that BJJ and submission grappling have some limitations as applied to self defense. Some of the most comman anti-BJJ arguments include 'you can't grapple on broken glass and other street trash', 'if you go to the ground, his buddy will kick you in the head', and 'if he's got a knife, you're deader than a dooornail'.

So, what can a BJJ'er do 'on the street'? Surely somebody can come up with something... Remember, the question isn't which style is BEST, it's how to make use of the stuff you learned in submission grappling/BJJ.

BrotherD · 09-21-2005, 11:26 AM

Bjj is an extension of JJ, which is standing, if you set it up right the object that you want to break will be broken while throwing or when you hit the ground.

Do not base real skill on what you do in the ring, the ring skills have been modified for the sport to protect people. You can still be hurt, but the risk of injury is not as high. So train from time to time without a sport Strategy and you'll improve your chances in a street fight. In other words same skills without the ring stuff. Knowing how to use your knowledge to escape bad holds and positions are a plus in a street fight. if being stomped rollout or into legs things will happen, leg swipes and trip ups are ground techniques. So you have some options (although limited ones) you're not helpless.
peace

cam427 · 09-21-2005, 11:50 AM

There are some things you can do with just BJJ. Despite popular opinion (on the internet) most fights do not involve large groups of armed men. While staying off the ground is practical in some situations in others it is fine.

Things like grips (being able to hold someone so they cannot strike you) and throws are very useful. Landing on concrete from a nasty body drop can easily end a fight.

Just the other day a guy from a BJJ club where I used to train got into a fight with a boxer from the town. He took him to the ground, restrained him and beat him until he gave up. It can be done and this is what most street fights are like. A bunch of (usually drunk) idiots approach a group of people and one of them picks a fight.

Also (I keep repeating this), the mentality of training for a sport is healthier than imagining every possible bad thing that can happen to you. Enjoy your training (and your life) and if something bad happens deal with it as best you can.

My 2 cents.

Cam

aseepish · 09-21-2005, 02:53 PM

It's all been said before but...

Coming from a JKD perspective (mastery of all ranges of combat), BJJ is invaluable for self-defense. If you can't grapple and a fight goes to the ground (something you may not have control over), you are going to waste a lot of energy getting up/away.

As far as pure BJJ is concerned, entry to clinch, then a throw that leaves the defender on his feet, to knee-on-the-belly, then blast away with punches.

danfaggella · 09-21-2005, 03:54 PM

BJJ guys can learn to adapt and not get bitten, gouged by fingers, ect... and learn to do a bit of that themselves, to train in such techniques cant be done in sparring but it can be simulated. Knives are something you can also train to defend against. Having solid standup and a good sprint is a nice way to deal with multiple atackers and guys looking for you to get close so they can stab you or rip off your ear. Krav Maga is a practical art dealing with many of these issues, read about it.

pstevens · 09-21-2005, 04:32 PM

IMO, BJJ prepares you for the average skirmish more so than other martial arts, specialized training excluded. While many martial arts practice self-defense scenarios, these are hardly done realistically or with 100% resistance - and even when resistance is added, the motions are predetermined.

In BJJ, you get used to working against real resistance, much like a real struggle. Believe me, unless you've crossed the wrong guy at the wrong moment, many fights are weaponless and involve a lot of struggling close-range. This is where BJJ clinch and takedowns can become effective. Also, in some circles, basic self-defense is still taught in the BJJ curriculum.

And "yes," everyone is right - you use what you must, whether it be bjj, judo, karate or kung-fu.

On a last note: If you're ever surrounded by a bunch of angry men with weapons with broken glass everywhere on the ground, then BJJ probably won't work.

mixwell · 09-21-2005, 06:01 PM

Honestly I don't know how many posts I have seen about BJJ being useless against multiple attackers with knifes and broken glass on the street.. Why do people always use BJJ as the MA for these scenarios ? NO MA address this as stated before. Its just common sense to know when your beat. I dont care what MA you train in you are most likely going to lose the fight under those situations. Also, I don't about where you guys live but where I'm from its not like everyone carrys a blade and has a group of friends with them..

Also I tend to be social person who has friends of my own as well. Anyways.. I think a BJJ practioner has more of a chance in a fight as opposite to Joe Schmo with no MA experience. I agree with pstevens on use what you know whether it be BJJ, MT, or kung-fu.. The thing I do like about BJJ though is that it does use unscripted resistance that can get you used to a real life situation. I took karate when I was younger, not for long but I had gotten in a fight with it and everything I knew went out the window.

Now with BJJ, I haven't been in a fight but I mess around with my friends sometimes.. Using the randori (live sparring) condition I find to use BJJ more instinctively now as with karate you have to think about it more.. Now its more of just what comes naturally.. I think the BEST thing for self defense or whatever about BJJ is the fact that it does involve 100% resistance which is more realistic.. (okay i know kano introduced this so I'm not trying to say BJJ invented this idea for any of you ma historians) haha.

-Peace

Yu Law · 09-21-2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixwell

Honestly I don't know how many posts I have seen about BJJ being useless against multiple attackers with knifes and broken glass on the street.. Why do people always use BJJ as the MA for these scenarios ? NO MA address this as stated before. Its just common sense to know when your beat. I dont care what MA you train in you are most likely going to lose the fight under those situations. Also, I don't about where you guys live but where I'm from its not like everyone carrys a blade and has a group of friends with them..

you're right, u are most likely goign to lose a fight involving multiple attackers, but pple want to know which martial art is the best for the scenario. BJJ is not one of them along with others. Is it better than not knowing anythign at all? Or course not, maybe u can take one guy to the ground creatng a path to run away.

Anyways, this topic comes up frequntly enough and i think it's safe to say that staying on your feet is the safest thing to do durign an encounter with 6 6'5 300 lb gorillas that wanna mess u up.

mixwell · 09-21-2005, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yu Law

Anyways, this topic comes up frequntly enough and i think it's safe to say that staying on your feet is the safest thing to do durign an encounter with 6 6'5 300 lb gorillas that wanna mess u up.

Exactly and its just common sense.. Anyone that is stupid enough to take on a bunch of attackers deserves to get the crap beat out of them !! Your best bet is to have a gun or have a fast sprint.

pstevens · 09-21-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yu Law

but pple want to know which martial art is the best for the scenario. BJJ is not one of them along with others. Is it better than not knowing anythign at all? Or course not, maybe u can take one guy to the ground creatng a path to run away.

Wake up kiddo... NOTHING WILL SAVE YOU FROM MULTIPLE ATTACKERS... Except an automatic weapon and 5 yards. If a gang of heavily armed people are after you, you must have done something to really piss them off... Oh, and watch out for the glass on the ground.

mixwell · 09-21-2005, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstevens

Wake up kiddo... NOTHING WILL SAVE YOU FROM MULTIPLE ATTACKERS... Except an automatic weapon and 5 yards. If a gang of heavily armed people are after you, you must have done something to really piss them off... Oh, and watch out for the glass on the ground.

And don't forget to watch out for the needles, spikes, nails, screws, other pointy objects and also ummmm fire ??

Some people come up with the most far out scenarios.. haha

Sensei Saki · 09-21-2005, 11:59 PM

Ok I'll try not to do forget to watch out for the needles spikes nails screws other pointy objects and also ummmm fire too much.
Not many people express themselves that way.I am so glad you find this amusing, .

sapatiero · 09-22-2005, 04:31 PM

The 'old school' style of BJJ still being taught by Rorion & his sons is very self defense oriented. The guys focus on learning the basics well & doing stand up self defense stuff (especially in the beginners class).

But my old traditional JJ sensei always used to say if you're faced with a guy who has a knife & knows how to use it you need 2 things...

1. A clean pair of heels.
2. A clean pair of pants.

Sensei Saki · 09-22-2005, 04:32 PM

Thanks for the info.What is that?And.
Where did you get your old traditional JJ sensei always used to say if you are faced with a guy who has a knife knows how to use it you need 2 things?
My brain uses AIML to format responses to your inputs, but I don't have one for that.
How old are you?
Are you talking about an animal, vegetable or mineral?

sapatiero · 09-22-2005, 04:38 PM

Sorry - I guess some of my brit comments don't translate well. I was training with an american guy a few weeks ago and described a technique as 'shit or bust'. To us brits, that means it's a last resort, but it meant nothing to him. In terms of the two things to do, my old sensei was essentially saying you should simply run like f**k.

09-21-2005, 11:10 AM	#1 (permalink)
gregimotis Premiere Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Still residing in the Premiere members booth Posts: 1,965	BJJ as self defense (can it be done?) It's pretty clear to everybody that BJJ and submission grappling have some limitations as applied to self defense. Some of the most comman anti-BJJ arguments include 'you can't grapple on broken glass and other street trash', 'if you go to the ground, his buddy will kick you in the head', and 'if he's got a knife, you're deader than a dooornail'. So, what can a BJJ'er do 'on the street'? Surely somebody can come up with something... Remember, the question isn't which style is BEST, it's how to make use of the stuff you learned in submission grappling/BJJ. __________________ . . I am Tired. Tired. Tired.

09-21-2005, 11:26 AM	#2 (permalink)
BrotherD Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 32	yes Bjj is an extension of JJ, which is standing, if you set it up right the object that you want to break will be broken while throwing or when you hit the ground. Do not base real skill on what you do in the ring, the ring skills have been modified for the sport to protect people. You can still be hurt, but the risk of injury is not as high. So train from time to time without a sport Strategy and you'll improve your chances in a street fight. In other words same skills without the ring stuff. Knowing how to use your knowledge to escape bad holds and positions are a plus in a street fight. if being stomped rollout or into legs things will happen, leg swipes and trip ups are ground techniques. So you have some options (although limited ones) you're not helpless. peace

09-21-2005, 02:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
aseepish Registered User Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: British Columbia Posts: 1,603	It's all been said before but... Coming from a JKD perspective (mastery of all ranges of combat), BJJ is invaluable for self-defense. If you can't grapple and a fight goes to the ground (something you may not have control over), you are going to waste a lot of energy getting up/away. As far as pure BJJ is concerned, entry to clinch, then a throw that leaves the defender on his feet, to knee-on-the-belly, then blast away with punches. __________________ "It was about that time I realized that searching was my symbol, the emblem of those who go out at night with nothing in mind, the motives of a destroyer of compasses." -Cortázar

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09-21-2005, 11:50 AM	#3 (permalink)
cam427 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 255	There are some things you can do with just BJJ. Despite popular opinion (on the internet) most fights do not involve large groups of armed men. While staying off the ground is practical in some situations in others it is fine. Things like grips (being able to hold someone so they cannot strike you) and throws are very useful. Landing on concrete from a nasty body drop can easily end a fight. Just the other day a guy from a BJJ club where I used to train got into a fight with a boxer from the town. He took him to the ground, restrained him and beat him until he gave up. It can be done and this is what most street fights are like. A bunch of (usually drunk) idiots approach a group of people and one of them picks a fight. Also (I keep repeating this), the mentality of training for a sport is healthier than imagining every possible bad thing that can happen to you. Enjoy your training (and your life) and if something bad happens deal with it as best you can. My 2 cents. Cam

09-21-2005, 03:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
danfaggella Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kingston RI Posts: 1,089	BJJ guys can learn to adapt and not get bitten, gouged by fingers, ect... and learn to do a bit of that themselves, to train in such techniques cant be done in sparring but it can be simulated. Knives are something you can also train to defend against. Having solid standup and a good sprint is a nice way to deal with multiple atackers and guys looking for you to get close so they can stab you or rip off your ear. Krav Maga is a practical art dealing with many of these issues, read about it.

09-21-2005, 04:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
pstevens Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 335	IMO, BJJ prepares you for the average skirmish more so than other martial arts, specialized training excluded. While many martial arts practice self-defense scenarios, these are hardly done realistically or with 100% resistance - and even when resistance is added, the motions are predetermined. In BJJ, you get used to working against real resistance, much like a real struggle. Believe me, unless you've crossed the wrong guy at the wrong moment, many fights are weaponless and involve a lot of struggling close-range. This is where BJJ clinch and takedowns can become effective. Also, in some circles, basic self-defense is still taught in the BJJ curriculum. And "yes," everyone is right - you use what you must, whether it be bjj, judo, karate or kung-fu. On a last note: If you're ever surrounded by a bunch of angry men with weapons with broken glass everywhere on the ground, then BJJ probably won't work.

09-21-2005, 06:01 PM	#7 (permalink)
mixwell Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 100	Honestly I don't know how many posts I have seen about BJJ being useless against multiple attackers with knifes and broken glass on the street.. Why do people always use BJJ as the MA for these scenarios ? NO MA address this as stated before. Its just common sense to know when your beat. I dont care what MA you train in you are most likely going to lose the fight under those situations. Also, I don't about where you guys live but where I'm from its not like everyone carrys a blade and has a group of friends with them.. Also I tend to be social person who has friends of my own as well. Anyways.. I think a BJJ practioner has more of a chance in a fight as opposite to Joe Schmo with no MA experience. I agree with pstevens on use what you know whether it be BJJ, MT, or kung-fu.. The thing I do like about BJJ though is that it does use unscripted resistance that can get you used to a real life situation. I took karate when I was younger, not for long but I had gotten in a fight with it and everything I knew went out the window. Now with BJJ, I haven't been in a fight but I mess around with my friends sometimes.. Using the randori (live sparring) condition I find to use BJJ more instinctively now as with karate you have to think about it more.. Now its more of just what comes naturally.. I think the BEST thing for self defense or whatever about BJJ is the fact that it does involve 100% resistance which is more realistic.. (okay i know kano introduced this so I'm not trying to say BJJ invented this idea for any of you ma historians) haha. -Peace

09-21-2005, 11:59 PM	#12 (permalink)
Sensei Saki "Endless Wisdom" Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Cyberspace Posts: 781	Ok I'll try not to do forget to watch out for the needles spikes nails screws other pointy objects and also ummmm fire too much. Not many people express themselves that way.I am so glad you find this amusing, .

09-22-2005, 04:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
sapatiero Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 242	The 'old school' style of BJJ still being taught by Rorion & his sons is very self defense oriented. The guys focus on learning the basics well & doing stand up self defense stuff (especially in the beginners class). But my old traditional JJ sensei always used to say if you're faced with a guy who has a knife & knows how to use it you need 2 things... 1. A clean pair of heels. 2. A clean pair of pants.

09-22-2005, 04:32 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sensei Saki "Endless Wisdom" Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Cyberspace Posts: 781	Thanks for the info.What is that?And. Where did you get your old traditional JJ sensei always used to say if you are faced with a guy who has a knife knows how to use it you need 2 things? My brain uses AIML to format responses to your inputs, but I don't have one for that. How old are you? Are you talking about an animal, vegetable or mineral?

09-22-2005, 04:38 PM	#15 (permalink)
sapatiero Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 242	Sorry - I guess some of my brit comments don't translate well. I was training with an american guy a few weeks ago and described a technique as 'shit or bust'. To us brits, that means it's a last resort, but it meant nothing to him. In terms of the two things to do, my old sensei was essentially saying you should simply run like f**k.

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