Why BJJ is the Ultimate Martial Art

[pstevens]

As much as people want to deny it, BJJ is the ultimate martial art... It has been proven over and over again in the most realistic scenario - competition. This is TRUE because without BJJ in their repetoire, other styles would consistently lose to BJJ. There very, very few scenarios, if any, where another style defeated BJJ, without using elements of BJJ.

Self-defense fanatics and TMA's will claim to hold secret and upracticeable technques, but we've heard all that talk before, without any results... The truth is if these "deadly" tactics are so functional, then why don't they work? Afterall, a good technique can be applied to any arena...

Until these fantastic systems can produce observable results, they have nothing and the burden of proof lies with them...

[BoarSpear]

so youre saying NO traditional Martial Art could ever stand up to BJJ?

[OmaPlata]

[ There very, very few scenarios, if any, where another style defeated BJJ, without using elements of BJJ.]

You may want to watch some modern day MMA in Pride, UFC, KIng of the Cage, World Extreme Cage Fighting, etc etc. Watch a guy named Chuck Liddell if you get a chance. He KO'd Babalu in UFC 40 with a head kick. BJJ guys do get KO'd at times.

[BoarSpear]

funny thing i was always under the impression Judo was a traditional martial art...and if im not mistaken the FOUNDER of bjj was defeated by a Judo player...maybe these video clips are fake .....
http://video.search.yahoo.com/search...y-vert-vid-top

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/...e=5.8MB&dur=28

[HtTKar]

I have nothing against BJJ or any other art. None of them are superior, it is just art. It's all relative to what you happen to like. Soon BJJ will be just as washed-up as all the other mainstream arts anyways.

I'll go off on a tangent here, you dont have to follow me if you want.
Using sports competition is equivalent to judging fighting dogs based on conformance. Its proven that dogs with deeper ribcages can breath longer, squared heads have more biting power, slanted eyes keep the teeth out, a square body provides the most power, balance and leverage, and strong back legs provide 80% of the dogs pulling power. They put these dogs on stage and they are judged by professional judges for conformance, based on set criteria that the dog should meet for his specific job. They built breeds around this entire aspect of conformance; specifically bulldogs, bull terriers, and pitbulls....all based off of what it takes to be the perfect fighting dog.
The greatest fighting dog in history was a Collie. Yep, they got it all wrong. So, is a pitbul the superior fighting dog? The answer is though they are bred for it, look like it, and put to the test..nope, its a collie.

[OmaPlata]

< have nothing against BJJ or any other art. None of them are superior, it is just art. It's all relative to what you happen to like. Soon BJJ will be just as washed-up as all the other mainstream arts anyways. >

Why is that? Those others became washed up when BJJ exposed how easy it was to defeat them. The GRacies made fools outta the other styles. BJJ is science, IT isnt beatable on the ground for the mostpart. It is constantly evolving new moves and adjusting defense for them. Obviously you havent trained, and furthermore I have two pitbulls, you can pick either, and I would bet a "collie" wouldnt last 3 mintues with either one of them

[HtTKar]

I have a Pit, a very good looking doctor-pepper brindle, papered, Colby male. He's looks just like a pit should. But yeah, the Collie story is true though, so it cannot be disputed.

Why is that? Those others became washed up when BJJ exposed how easy it was to defeat them.

The other styles are washed up because anyone can train in them, anyone can be a teacher. They are spread across the world with profit as a focus. BJJ did find many weaknesses, and part of BJJ's strength is that very few people were doing it. Everyone was a professional or being trained by one. Soon when the YMCA is teaching BJJ it will no longer be the effective art it is today. Popularity breeds complacency. Same with dogs. The more popular something becomes, the shittier it becomes. The standards lower to meet the demands of all the people that want to be a part of the next new fad.

[BoarSpear]

Already there are blue belts in bjj running schools... it doesnt take long for the downward spiral to begin

[OmaPlata]

[The other styles are washed up because anyone can train in them, anyone can be a teacher. ]

This isnt the case with BJJ, sure there may be some guy at the Y that teaches it, but it isnt Brazilian (GRacie). They are very very selective as to who opens schools anywhere. Any BJJ school will some instructor that is tied to the orginal family somehow, look at the family tree i thinks its at bjj.org

[cam427]

This thread is as stupid as Uke's "BJJ is no good for Self Defense" thread.

All arts (when taught properly) have some value. Some have more than others but this is down to how they are taught.

The reason most BJJ guys do well in competition is because of two things:

1) The nature of the sport encourages people to cross train. Most BJJ guys also do boxing, Thai boxing, judo, wrestling or some other sport.

2) In BJJ you spar a lot compared to (most) other styles. This is a crucial element of learning to fight (fighting!!).

Many traditional schools do not do this anymore because of what I call "The Karate Kid Syndrome" where all instructors try to be Mr Myagi but many do and the ones that train with full resistance are often equally as effective as BJJ (but not usually on the ground because that is not where their focus is).

I have fought guys from all different styles, some where good others were not. Comparing styles this way is useless. If you enjoy BJJ then just do it and stop trying to convert everyone.

Cam

PS: I also love BJJ but think this tired old subject should be left alone (before it comes to Uke's attention and goes for 26 pages )

[EmptyneSs]

Originally Posted by pstevens

As much as people want to deny it, BJJ is the ultimate martial art.

sakuraba(the gracie hunter) has fought many gracies and beaten them all. his style is pro wrestling lol, and none of the gracies could ever beat him.

also many pure wrestlers and judokas have beaten bjj guys in competition. grappling is one of the oldest sport/arts there is. it isnt new. ufc and the gracies just made it real popular the way bruce lee and ralph machio made kung fu and karate popular in the 70s and 80s. there are many styles of graplling from all over the world. just about every culture has its own style of grappling, all of them pretty effective do to the competitiveness of the sport.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

so youre saying NO traditional Martial Art could ever stand up to BJJ?

No traditional art, other than “old school” judo, which is similar to BJJ, has... Modern judo players need to tweak their game, by learning aspects of BJJ in order to compete.

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

You may want to watch some modern day MMA in Pride, UFC, KIng of the Cage, World Extreme Cage Fighting, etc etc. Watch a guy named Chuck Liddell if you get a chance. He KO'd Babalu in UFC 40 with a head kick. BJJ guys do get KO'd at times.

I already addressed this in my original post. Chuck Liddell along with everyone else today trains submissions, which is a bi-product of BJJ, or BJJ itself. If he didn’t know BJJ, I seriously doubt he would be able to use his stand-up skills. You see, once a person learns BJJ, they no longer fear being taken down as much, so they can play the stand-up game if that’s their strength. But, if you notice in the earlier UFC’s, stand-up guys were very hesitant to attack, often pulling punches and kicks, only to be taken down and beaten.

Originally Posted by HtTKar

I'll go off on a tangent here, you dont have to follow me if you want.
Using sports competition is equivalent to judging fighting dogs based on conformance. Its proven that dogs with deeper ribcages can breath longer, squared heads have more biting power, slanted eyes keep the teeth out, a square body provides the most power, balance and leverage, and strong back legs provide 80% of the dogs pulling power. They put these dogs on stage and they are judged by professional judges for conformance, based on set criteria that the dog should meet for his specific job. They built breeds around this entire aspect of conformance; specifically bulldogs, bull terriers, and pitbulls....all based off of what it takes to be the perfect fighting dog.
The greatest fighting dog in history was a Collie. Yep, they got it all wrong. So, is a pitbul the superior fighting dog? The answer is though they are bred for it, look like it, and put to the test..nope, its a collie.

Puahahaha... You’re right... It is a far tangent... Although, your story does remind me of karate and kung-fu. When first introduced, people figured a reverse punch or chi power could kill. Now, it’s common knowledge both are as useless in combat as ballet.

Originally Posted by cam427

This thread is as stupid as Uke's "BJJ is no good for Self Defense" thread.

No it’s not... Uke is a certified moron.

Originally Posted by cam427

All arts (when taught properly) have some value. Some have more than others but this is down to how they are taught.

That’s true to an extent... However, you can train a TKD guy to the point of olympic standing and they will still lose to a BJJ blue belt. It’s all about the delivery system.

Originally Posted by cam427

The reason most BJJ guys do well in competition is because of two things:

1) The nature of the sport encourages people to cross train. Most BJJ guys also do boxing, Thai boxing, judo, wrestling or some other sport.

Wrong!!! BJJ guys only started cross training, because others realized how powerful its delivery system was and learned it.

Originally Posted by cam427

2) In BJJ you spar a lot compared to (most) other styles. This is a crucial element of learning to fight (fighting!!).

Yes and no. True, BJJ does spar a lot, but it’s also the sparring style and delivery system. TKD sparrs just as much, at least the gyms I’ve been to, but that still doesn’t mean anything.

Originally Posted by cam427

Many traditional schools do not do this anymore because of what I call "The Karate Kid Syndrome" where all instructors try to be Mr Myagi but many do and the ones that train with full resistance are often equally as effective as BJJ (but not usually on the ground because that is not where their focus is).

They are effective within their own limitations, but BJJ has been proven to be effective against all other arts - the point I’m making.

Originally Posted by cam427

I have fought guys from all different styles, some where good others were not. Comparing styles this way is useless. If you enjoy BJJ then just do it and stop trying to convert everyone.

Actually, it’s not useless... If you ever get a chance, study observational behavior... Although it takes a business approach to behavioral constructs, it does show that certain fundaments are better than others, in regards to human behavior and activity. For instance, you will get to point B from point A quicker by moving faster, than moving at normal speeds. Common knowledge.

Originally Posted by cam427

PS: I also love BJJ but think this tired old subject should be left alone (before it comes to Uke's attention and goes for 26 pages )

I don’t really care for Uke’s responses or backward logic (actually, he has none)... I’m more interested in proving my point. As much as I like karate, kung-fu, wrestling, etc... They wouldn’t stand a chance against BJJ.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

sakuraba(the gracie hunter) has fought many gracies and beaten them all. his style is pro wrestling lol, and none of the gracies could ever beat him.

Sakuraba has learned BJJ.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

also many pure wrestlers and judokas have beaten bjj guys in competition. grappling is one of the oldest sport/arts there is. it isnt new. ufc and the gracies just made it real popular the way bruce lee and ralph machio made kung fu and karate popular in the 70s and 80s. there are many styles of graplling from all over the world. just about every culture has its own style of grappling, all of them pretty effective do to the competitiveness of the sport.

Wrestlers and judokas do well against BJJ, because they have a similar delivery system... However, they cannot will without learning BJJ and applying its system. You are correct, there are grappling arts in every corner of the earth, but very few are legitimate, or work only in their own context. For instance, Mongolian wrestling will not win you a UFC title.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by BoarSpear

so youre saying NO traditional Martial Art could ever stand up to BJJ?

No traditional art, other than “old school” judo, which is similar to BJJ, has... Modern judo players need to tweak their game, by learning aspects of BJJ in order to compete.

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

You may want to watch some modern day MMA in Pride, UFC, KIng of the Cage, World Extreme Cage Fighting, etc etc. Watch a guy named Chuck Liddell if you get a chance. He KO'd Babalu in UFC 40 with a head kick. BJJ guys do get KO'd at times.

I already addressed this in my original post. Chuck Liddell along with everyone else today trains submissions, which is a bi-product of BJJ, or BJJ itself. If he didn’t know BJJ, I seriously doubt he would be able to use his stand-up skills. You see, once a person learns BJJ, they no longer fear being taken down as much, so they can play the stand-up game if that’s their strength. But, if you notice in the earlier UFC’s, stand-up guys were very hesitant to attack, often pulling punches and kicks, only to be taken down and beaten.

Originally Posted by HtTKar

I'll go off on a tangent here, you dont have to follow me if you want.
Using sports competition is equivalent to judging fighting dogs based on conformance. Its proven that dogs with deeper ribcages can breath longer, squared heads have more biting power, slanted eyes keep the teeth out, a square body provides the most power, balance and leverage, and strong back legs provide 80% of the dogs pulling power. They put these dogs on stage and they are judged by professional judges for conformance, based on set criteria that the dog should meet for his specific job. They built breeds around this entire aspect of conformance; specifically bulldogs, bull terriers, and pitbulls....all based off of what it takes to be the perfect fighting dog.
The greatest fighting dog in history was a Collie. Yep, they got it all wrong. So, is a pitbul the superior fighting dog? The answer is though they are bred for it, look like it, and put to the test..nope, its a collie.

Puahahaha... You’re right... It is a far tangent... Although, your story does remind me of karate and kung-fu. When first introduced, people figured a reverse punch or chi power could kill. Now, it’s common knowledge both are as useless in combat as ballet.

Originally Posted by cam427

This thread is as stupid as Uke's "BJJ is no good for Self Defense" thread.

No it’s not... Uke is a certified moron.

Originally Posted by cam427

All arts (when taught properly) have some value. Some have more than others but this is down to how they are taught.

That’s true to an extent... However, you can train a TKD guy to the point of olympic standing and they will still lose to a BJJ blue belt. It’s all about the delivery system.

Originally Posted by cam427

The reason most BJJ guys do well in competition is because of two things:

1) The nature of the sport encourages people to cross train. Most BJJ guys also do boxing, Thai boxing, judo, wrestling or some other sport.

Wrong!!! BJJ guys only started cross training, because others realized how powerful its delivery system was and learned it.

Originally Posted by cam427

2) In BJJ you spar a lot compared to (most) other styles. This is a crucial element of learning to fight (fighting!!).

Yes and no. True, BJJ does spar a lot, but it’s also the sparring style and delivery system. TKD sparrs just as much, at least the gyms I’ve been to, but that still doesn’t mean anything.

Originally Posted by cam427

Many traditional schools do not do this anymore because of what I call "The Karate Kid Syndrome" where all instructors try to be Mr Myagi but many do and the ones that train with full resistance are often equally as effective as BJJ (but not usually on the ground because that is not where their focus is).

They are effective within their own limitations, but BJJ has been proven to be effective against all other arts - the point I’m making.

Originally Posted by cam427

I have fought guys from all different styles, some where good others were not. Comparing styles this way is useless. If you enjoy BJJ then just do it and stop trying to convert everyone.

Actually, it’s not useless... If you ever get a chance, study observational behavior... Although it takes a business approach to behavioral constructs, it does show that certain fundaments are better than others, in regards to human behavior and activity. For instance, you will get to point B from point A quicker by moving faster, than moving at normal speeds. Common knowledge.

Originally Posted by cam427

PS: I also love BJJ but think this tired old subject should be left alone (before it comes to Uke's attention and goes for 26 pages )

I don’t really care for Uke’s responses or backward logic (actually, he has none)... I’m more interested in proving my point. As much as I like karate, kung-fu, wrestling, etc... They wouldn’t stand a chance against BJJ.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

sakuraba(the gracie hunter) has fought many gracies and beaten them all. his style is pro wrestling lol, and none of the gracies could ever beat him.

Sakuraba has learned BJJ.

Originally Posted by EmptyneSs

also many pure wrestlers and judokas have beaten bjj guys in competition. grappling is one of the oldest sport/arts there is. it isnt new. ufc and the gracies just made it real popular the way bruce lee and ralph machio made kung fu and karate popular in the 70s and 80s. there are many styles of graplling from all over the world. just about every culture has its own style of grappling, all of them pretty effective do to the competitiveness of the sport.

Wrestlers and judokas do well against BJJ, because they have a similar delivery system... However, they cannot win without learning BJJ and applying its system. You are correct, there are grappling arts in every corner of the earth, but very few are legitimate, or work only in their own context. For instance, Mongolian wrestling will not win you a UFC title.

[pstevens]

Okay, let me address your feedback...

[cam427]

PStevens,

Let me attempt to respond to your points.

1) I do agree that as a delivery system BJJ is better than some other styles such as your example with a TKD guy but.... what if you had a Thai boxer or wrestler against the same blue belt. Would the result be the same?

Maybe...Maybe not.

Your statement was that BJJ was better than all other styles without defining the context (a huge statement).

Is a BJJ guy a better puncher than a boxer? No.
Is he a better kicker than a MT guy? No.
Are his takedowns as good as a Wrestler or Judoka? No.
Is he better than a Kali guy with a knife? No.
Is he better on the ground than everyone else? Yes.


Does this mean that it is the best style in the world? The answer to this is so subjective that if you asked fifty people you would get fifty answers.

2) Your statement:
"Wrong!!! BJJ guys only started cross training, because others realized how powerful its delivery system was and learned it."
does not seem to make sense. If everyone was learning BJJ because it had everything then why would BJJ guys need to cross train also? I dont really understand what you are trying to say here.

3) All styles have limitations including BJJ. See the list above for things that other styles are better at.

Cam