Interesting Article On BJJ/JJJ

[JkD187]

With all these BJJ/JJJ threads i came across this article and thought i would share it with you guys. http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/news_archive_0603.shtml

[BoarSpear]

HEHEHE yep its funny how suddenly those very same techniques were "invented" by the gracies...maybe STOLEN would be a better word

And of course Helio proved in his fight against Kimura the wisdom in removing the throws because they are so ineffective.

[covaliufan]

I'm tired of you idiots. No, Helio didn't invent any new techniques, and yes, almost all the standard bjj techniques can be found in jujitsu or judo.

No one calls Jigaro Kano a thief, but he invented no techniques himself either; his innovation was to remove "deadly" techniques and focus on training with full resistance, and this was quite an accomplishment.

The Gracie innovation was to take these grappling techniques, change the focus and strategy, and successfully bring them to vale tudo competition. The end result? The first UFC's in America, an explosion of interest in modern training methods and competitions in the United States, and a solidly established grappling style and sport where ranks actually have value and students can be counted on to actually have some fighting ability, all questions of "is bjj for teh sdreet" aside.

Bah. Shall we skip any reasonable discussion and move on to how Kimura beat Helio, as if that has any relevance to the modern status of bjj or judo or jujitsu today?

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by covaliufan

I'm tired of you idiots. No, Helio didn't invent any new techniques, and yes, almost all the standard bjj techniques can be found in jujitsu or judo.

No one calls Jigaro Kano a thief, but he invented no techniques himself either; his innovation was to remove "deadly" techniques and focus on training with full resistance, and this was quite an accomplishment.

The Gracie innovation was to take these grappling techniques, change the focus and strategy, and successfully bring them to vale tudo competition. The end result? The first UFC's in America, an explosion of interest in modern training methods and competitions in the United States, and a solidly established grappling style and sport where ranks actually have value and students can be counted on to actually have some fighting ability, all questions of "is bjj for teh sdreet" aside.

Bah. Shall we skip any reasonable discussion and move on to how Kimura beat Helio, as if that has any relevance to the modern status of bjj or judo or jujitsu today?

Funny how bad historical facts ruin some peoples whole day....
But hey thanks for the sport...we appreciate the new sports entertainment shows that it has given us. and of course these great threads

[covaliufan]

Funny how you don't actually seem to have anything to say in response to me.

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by covaliufan

Funny how you don't actually seem to have anything to say in response to me.

in other words you cant read....
you talked about how the gracies modified jj/ judo and gave us the ufc .... I thanked you for the sport...how did i not address your points?

so go to the other BJJ is the ultimate martial art thread and watch the clips i posted....

but if you wanted to discuss that fight....maybe i missed it in the middle of your babbling. Read helio's interview about the fight, he admits to being choked out and no one noticed...and being an honorable guy, as all the gracies are, he continued to fight until beaten a second time....then watch the fight, i provided links ...then the parts you still cant comprehend i will try to break down for you...

WILL IT HELP IF I TYPE SLOWER?

[mixwell]

Why does everyone bash on BJJ ? Its like the thing to do on this forum.. Its not a surprise that the Gracies didn't "invent" BJJ so why does everyone act like " haha I exposed the truth behind the gracies" The only threads people seem to post on here is why BJJ is not good for street fighting and that the gracies didn't invent BJJ.. Its like the same shit over and over..

[IPON]

Originally Posted by covaliufan

No one calls Jigaro Kano a thief, but he invented no techniques himself either; his innovation was to remove "deadly" techniques and focus on training with full resistance, and this was quite an accomplishment.

The Gracie innovation was to take these grappling techniques, change the focus and strategy, and successfully bring them to vale tudo competition. The end result?

Ok, I am not trying to argue but just clarify.

1. You should read about the life Jigaro Kano it is a good read. The problem is, whether right or wrong, the Gracies basically claimed that their style was the best an unbeatable for those that would listen. Kano Sensei never made those claims it was clearly documented what styles he studies and the changes he made. He never made claime of creating techniques

2. I think you have this backwards Vale Tudo originated from the Gracies street brawling. So it was a venue to fight legally. However, if you look at Maeda’s history you still have to ask yourself the question if this was a gGracie idea or did they just put into practice what they learned from Maeda. Neither scenario is bad. But just give credit where credit is due

What I see is a lot of BJJer getting upset at the retaliation for lies that the Gracies have made and the ego. Just because someone does not want to get into a ring does not make a style inferior…food for thought

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by mixwell

Why does everyone bash on BJJ ? Its like the thing to do on this forum.. Its not a surprise that the Gracies didn't "invent" BJJ so why does everyone act like " haha I exposed the truth behind the gracies" The only threads people seem to post on here is why BJJ is not good for street fighting and that the gracies didn't invent BJJ.. Its like the same shit over and over..

WHY DO BJJ PEOPLE CONSTANTLY CLAIM ITS THE GREATEST MARTIAL ART IN THE UNIVERSE, AND THAT IT IS THE BEST DEFENSE IN THE STREET? ....ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE FACT IT ISNT EVEN DOMINANT IN THE RING ANYMORE?

If no threads like that existed you wouldnt see me wasting my time debating it with you....i would be posting in the CHINESE and FMA and MILITARY threads pretty much exclusivly. HOWEVER the CMA threads are dead because if you attempt to inquire about or discuss them, a well known group of people descend upon you to destroy the threads with statments about wrestling and bjj being the only things that work in the street in spite of the fact that both of them are huge sports....yes they both are a needed part of a complete fighters toolbox, but both of them need work on striking. and wrestling needs to work on finishes, while bjj needs to work on takedowns and striking. The traditional arts need to be taught to address the same freakin things .....ANYTHING ELSE???? CAN I GO BACK TO THE THREADS I WOULD LIKE TO BE TO POSTING IN WITHOUT YOU BUTTING THE **** IN? IF SO I WILL, ....OTHERWISE I WILL BE RIGHT HERE POINTING OUT THE HYPOCRASY AND LIES.

[IPON]

Originally Posted by mixwell

Why does everyone bash on BJJ ? Its like the thing to do on this forum.. Its not a surprise that the Gracies didn't "invent" BJJ so why does everyone act like " haha I exposed the truth behind the gracies" The only threads people seem to post on here is why BJJ is not good for street fighting and that the gracies didn't invent BJJ.. Its like the same shit over and over..

I think its because you have a lot of BJJer that come onthe forum and just speak with little understanding. I agree noone should say for exaple that Judo is better than BJJ or the opposite. But people go on and on about what Helio what the Gracies created and most of it is out of context or just simply wrong (from a historical point)

[OmaPlata]

MMA History:

The Gracies, and the Gracie trained BJJ family of fighters: 1785 wins
The rest of the world, not trained in BJJ, that defeated them: MAYBE 25 wins

[OmaPlata]

[WHY DO BJJ PEOPLE CONSTANTLY CLAIM ITS THE GREATEST MARTIAL ART IN THE UNIVERSE, AND THAT IT IS THE BEST DEFENSE IN THE STREET? ....ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE FACT IT ISNT EVEN DOMINANT IN THE RING ANYMORE?]

Boar stirring shit up again. It is the best Martial Art because 95 out of 100 times a Black belt in BJJ could defeat in MMA a Black Belt in any other art, including a boxer. Easily, as could a blue belt vs a blue in any other art. Some BJJ compete in Judo tourneys just for practice for standup. And as usually happens there, the Judo guys get submitted.
It isnt the best defense in the street, but what is besides a 9mm? One on One I will take BJJ all day. But in the crowded jail cell, maybe some muay thai would be better.
It isnt as dominant (they cant win 95% of the time like they did for 60 years) but the ONLY time it isnt dominant is if the other fighter is a BJJ fighter, or has trained to defend against takedowns, etc. A normal average Joe on the street who has no ground skills, and no training in anything, or even if he does, he will get twisted up like a pretzel.

[BoarSpear]

whoa, that is one of the great things about sports, the win loss records are right out in the open for all to see, LIKE SAY FOR INSTANCE THE 400 "wins" a certain GRACIE (i dont wanna name any names...hehehe ) claims that his own dad (Helio) says might be more like 8 or 9?

And the undefeated gracie clan we all heard of in the early 90's who had already been defeated (beaten in multiple meanings of the word ) by a profesional wrestler aside.

Streetfighters usually dont mug for pictures after fights on purpose...

So thier RECORDS arent as well documented...LOL streetfighters have to be caught to get a record...and the better ones do it quick dirty because they are surviving, not showing off or testing thier manhood. you prefer an "audience" and an "interview" after the fight......we abhor them.....LOL

So, Sorry our records arent as clean ugh i mean clear as yours.....

[OmaPlata]

Rickson has 400+ wins, but not in MMA. They must be counting his BJJ tournement records. 16 years straight World BJJ champ

[BoarSpear]

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

[WHY DO BJJ PEOPLE CONSTANTLY CLAIM ITS THE GREATEST MARTIAL ART IN THE UNIVERSE, AND THAT IT IS THE BEST DEFENSE IN THE STREET? ....ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE FACT IT ISNT EVEN DOMINANT IN THE RING ANYMORE?]

Boar stirring shit up again. It is the best Martial Art because 95 out of 100 times a Black belt in BJJ could defeat in MMA a Black Belt in any other art, including a boxer. Easily, as could a blue belt vs a blue in any other art. Some BJJ compete in Judo tourneys just for practice for standup. And as usually happens there, the Judo guys get submitted.

Well there ya go...IN THE RING YA REALLY NEED GJJ...i have said it one million freakin times....HOWEVER when they teach it to soldiers as happened due to the craze, yet they dont teach the knife and bayonet, its STUPID!!! (see the bringing knife to a gun fight thread i started in the military tactics forum...) note he didnt dive on the pack of soldiers with machine guns and put them in his gaurd .... he charged them with a POCKET KNIFE... and WON....hmmm, people caught up in a marketing craze perhaps????

No doubt the gracies are masters of multiple arts: gjj and marketing.

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

It isnt the best defense in the street, but what is besides a 9mm? One on One I will take BJJ all day. But in the crowded jail cell, maybe some muay thai would be better.

Well whether its one, or one on 5 i will stick to my knives, supplemented by my fma/silat, cma, judo (old school) mongolian wrestling, defendu, etc.

I am not a kid and if i am fighting its for my life...yes i bounce but if you confuse that with fighting, you don't know what a fight is.

Originally Posted by OmaPlata

A normal average Joe on the street who has no ground skills, and no training in anything,... will get twisted up like a pretzel

WELL arent we full of ourselves ....LOL i HOPE you can beat up untrained average joes...i guess thats the secret to all the gracie wins then...huh, since you guys are so big on saying "its been tested." i can only assume you built some of those many wins testing it out on untrained people, or was kimo thier first untrained opponent?

...maybe that explains why the big long undefeated streak we heard so much about came to a screeching halt when other people got to document the fights... We'll just ignore the fact that the Gracies undefeated winning streak ended the moment Helio lost.

for my money kimo (who was cutting backflips in the ring while royce was in the hospital) won that fight...note kimo had wrist wraps for the ring... those wouldnt have been there to have enabled a grip on a sweaty opponent in the street....

so if an untrained tough guy did well playing by the rules i will put my money on tough guys who know combat arts over athletes who practice sports in an ACTUAL NO RULES competition. anytime you wanna build the arena and can get it legalized and sponsored ....shoot me an email...... ive got some competitors for ya...