Kosen judo (Duch, you'll like this)

**Ryu (non-working password** · 01-09-2001, 04:47 AM

Here's something I found...
*gulp*...maybe I should try to avoid these guys, and train in olympic judo so I can do better at newaza heh heh JK)
Kosen Judo

by Faxia Roxa

(The Following post was made on The UnderWorld Forum in reply top the question,What is Kosen Judo?)

What is Kosen Judo?
What is Kosen Judo? A number of things. Kosen Judo is a form of Judo practiced in many of the universities in Japan which is very newaza (groundwork) oriented. They practice throws and takedowns like all Judoka, but in both training and shiai (competition) they spend about 90% of the time in newaza, and standups are much less frequent.

As for the guard being invented by the Gracies, that is a major misconception. The guard (open, closed, 1/2) as well as passes and sweeps, the knee on stomach (uki gatame), the triangle choke (sankaku jime), and the cross arm bar (juji gatame) are some things that are VERY incorrectly identified by some people as BJJ creations, they have been around in Judo since beginnning or at least since the Kodokan team lost to the Fusen Ryu around 1905.
They were the first newaza oriented ryu, and Kano, being open minded, requested them to teach their newaza (which was not focused on by most traditional JJ ryu as in depth newaza was not considered applicable to battlefield combat) to himself and the Kodokan.

They did, and that is how Judo gained its realative emphasis on newaza, before that it was mainly throws, atemi, and standing or direct-from throw subs. So these things are VERY much practiced by Judoka, and most Judoka are EXTREMELY competent with them. Shiai is only a part of Judo, not the goal of Judo, which is a complete art, and unfortunately it is possible to succeed fairly well in standard Judo shiai with mediocre newaza because of the no progress rule and a few other rules. But most Judoka don't do this in shiai, and very few train like this. most Judoka are very competent with all types of newaza, and many (myself included) place a great deal of emphasis on techniques like leg/ankle/wrist/shoulder/neck/etc. locks, atemi, and other things not allowed in shiai. And of course in Kosen Judo, it is very hard to stall for a standup because they are VERY rare, so their competition stress this even more, though most Judoka put a lot of stress on this in training anyways

**Robin Hood** · 01-09-2001, 06:17 AM

This is prove that BJJ is just rehashing old Judo tecniques.
How much longer can the Gracies wrongly claim to have inveted a new martial art when its just Judo?

**Ryu (non-working password** · 01-09-2001, 06:52 AM

Robin Hood,
with all due respect, both arts are great, but BJJ is not just judo. It would be like saying Bruce's style was "just" wing chun. I appreciate your post, but I do love judo, and don't want to see it flamed. Your post sounds a bit like you're inviting some flaming don't you think?

**Robin Hood** · 01-09-2001, 07:50 AM

I dont try to attract flames Ruy.
Im just sick of the lies that Rorion spreead in order to make guys take up BJJ for liots of money instead of joining a Judo club which is cheep.

**darkyellowsky** · 01-09-2001, 01:45 PM

I very much agree and disagree with Robin Hood. BJJ has alot of judo qualities yes, after all Mitsuo Madea was a judo master as well as jiu-jitsu, but it is not all judo. It has jiu-jitsu qualities, luta livre qualities, and streetfighting qualities. I do agree with Robin Hood about how people are spending to much money in BJJ dojos. Personally I think it is kind of a rip off to learn what you can get a basis of in a cheap judo club. I started in judo when was 6 and did it until I was 11, now that I am in BJJ I find that I am using alot that I learned ten years ago. I suggest that young kids start out in judo to get a basis and later on in life get into jiu-jitsu to learn more newaza.

**sccr06** · 01-09-2001, 02:21 PM

Ryu,

That was a very informative post. I agree with darkyellowsky's post too, especially the part about people spending too much money on BJJ instruction and judo being a good place to start kids.

But I think that the original post in this thread makes a point I stated earlier that it is not the techniques that differentiate BJJ from Judo but rather the focus in application and training.
I understand a lot of you out there feel differently and I would ask you to point out some techniques that BJJ and Judo do NOT share, as I can't think of any.

**dan downard** · 01-09-2001, 03:52 PM

I was under the impresion that the differences were suttle.Like the difference in the rear naked choke.In judo it is applied to the throut with the forearm.In Jiu Jits it is squeesed down and turned into a restriction of blood to the head.The restriction of blood puts you out faster than the lack of oxygen.Hence a faster lights out.I may be wrong,but that's the differences I have seen.Very suttle.

**yusul** · 01-09-2001, 04:26 PM

dan downard, Judoka attack the carotid artery (sp) in the neck to restrict the flow of blood to the brain. they do NOT attack the windpipe in competition. watch a Judo Shiai more carefully.

**dan downard** · 01-09-2001, 05:16 PM

Like I said,I may be wrong.That is the difference I saw from those who showed me.Maybe I was shown wrong.Thank you for the correction.

**Slider** · 01-09-2001, 05:43 PM

I think there are many differences .. And for one thing the Gracies dont say they invented all BJJ techniques they said they invented BJJ .. Surely u cant say that isnt true. All they said was that they modified some Jujitsu techniques and droped others that they didnt find usefull.. and created some of their own so that a small less powerfull person could use them against larger more powerfull people... .They didnt say that each technique was BJJ and that everything in it was created by them.. Its all the techniques, modified , created , or copyed all together is what makes BJJ. IMO BJJ is simply a sepperate ryu of JuJitsu.. A ryu created by the gracie family after learning traditional JuJitsu... And cant say that the guard isnt a BJJ technique cause it for sure is !! that doesnt mean it was invented by the Gracies just that it is very much a part of BJJ.. Ok enough of my rambleing =)

**sccr06** · 01-09-2001, 06:07 PM

If you are saying what I think you are saying, that is the best analogy...that of BJJ being a different school like all the different schools of kendo as developed by figures like Mitsuyoshi, Muneori, etc.

I'll buy that for a dollar!

**Badger** · 01-09-2001, 06:42 PM

Don't fight over it-Just Train!

-Badger

**Grahf1** · 01-09-2001, 11:27 PM

Are there any Kosen Judo schools in America? This would be a very cheap way of learning BJJ!

No way am I gonna pay $120 a month for 2 one hour lessons a week! Which leads me to another question. Is there any chance of the price of BJJ lowering in the future?

**rockinronnie** · 01-09-2001, 11:53 PM

Badger - Cool pic, I used it for my wallpaper...hope you don't mind.

Ryu - Since you seem knowledgable in the translation of the judo technique names from English to Japanese (ie; Uki gatame / knee on stomach), any chance on you giving a complete list of exactly what you know?

I'm learning translation of technique names from English to Portuguese (for BJJ), but I'd like to add Japanese to my list. Anything you know would help. Thanks.

Ronnie.
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A straight arm's a broken arm - Master JPF