Questions about BJJ & JJ

[danfaggella]

above comment: chill out, thats not an invalid question that the poor guy asked.

shoot: I like your insight and i agree with you a lot, we share very similar views. However, IMO, BJJ/MT exclusively with weapons isnt a complete system, i think it does cover many bases, but there need to be some non-sportive hand-to-hand things in there, right? maybe some training in Pointy Hand Kung Fu or even some JJJ, not that I have had teh pleasure of spending a long itme studying either, but that is why i dont necissarily feel like im as prepared for a street fight as i am for a submission grappling tornament, there are little techniques that cant be sparred with (gouges ect...) but should be learned in principle and theory for use in only spacific situations. What are your thoughts here.

jkd: exactly, we speack the smae language. also, its a shame that gjj isnt taught to its fullest extent for the most part (we americans only know about submissions in bjj and not the total system), yet i still think its a bit pompus to assume that one system is the greatest and that nothing else is ever needed. love the gracies though.

[covaliufan]

Originally Posted by danfaggella

(we americans only know about submissions in bjj and not the total system), yet i still think its a bit pompus to assume that one system is the greatest and that nothing else is ever needed. love the gracies though.

There's no Brazilian conspiracy keeping knowledge from America. A lot of the top people in bjj who had prime access to "teh pure GJJ" teach in the United States; if you think Rorion, Rickson or Royce aren't teaching "real" or "complete" bjj you're crazy. If you want to talk about the current trend of bjj being focused on winning sport grappling, to the detriment of vale tudo training, that's one thing, but to say that Americans don't have the real bjj is asinine.

Wait a minute, did you even ever actually start training at an actual school?

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by covaliufan

There's no Brazilian conspiracy keeping knowledge from America. A lot of the top people in bjj who had prime access to "teh pure GJJ" teach in the United States; if you think Rorion, Rickson or Royce aren't teaching "real" or "complete" bjj you're crazy. If you want to talk about the current trend of bjj being focused on winning sport grappling, to the detriment of vale tudo training, that's one thing, but to say that Americans don't have the real bjj is asinine.

Yeah, I find it ridiculous that so many people doing BJJ believe they're being withheld from the TRUE secrets of BJJ. NEWS FLASH: There are no BJJ or GJJ secrets... The Gracies have been training before they learned to walk. Ever been to Brazil to train? They have 12-year olds who are purple belts who were training in their diapers. Go to Gracie Humita (mispelling) and you'll find the younger Gracies training with everyone everyday - No special treatment, no special techniques, just the same ones taught by Royler or some other black belt. You want to learn true BJJ, just get on the mat and train.

[JkD187]

I think you guys misinterperated what he was getting at....he was saying us as americans know only Jiu-Jitsu as sport grappling(which to an extent is true)and have not seen the self-defense techs.Besides Royce and Rickson and Ronion i dont see about 98% of BJJ school teaching self defense techniques.

[covaliufan]

Perhaps, but many, many bjj schools are affiliated with mma schools or kickboxing schools.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by JkD187

I think you guys misinterperated what he was getting at....he was saying us as americans know only Jiu-Jitsu as sport grappling(which to an extent is true)and have not seen the self-defense techs.Besides Royce and Rickson and Ronion i dont see about 98% of BJJ school teaching self defense techniques.

Actually, they train even less self-defense in Brazil... In Brazil, the purpose of BJJ has shifted to almost 100% sport. The reason is simple - sport BJJ represents a valued enterprise and venue. Why waste time on self-defense when you need to be training for the next tournament? It's the Brazilian mentality to train and win, because that's their only ticket out of the flavelas (ghettos). I'm training now with two college guys who came from Gracie Barra in Rio and they told me self-defense is close to non-existent. The reason being, the Brazilians feel rolling better prepares them for such encounters. Also, vale tudo is sufficient for street... Not my words, but theirs.

[JkD187]

Originally Posted by pstevens

Actually, they train even less self-defense in Brazil... In Brazil, the purpose of BJJ has shifted to almost 100% sport. The reason is simple - sport BJJ represents a valued enterprise and venue. Why waste time on self-defense when you need to be training for the next tournament? It's the Brazilian mentality to train and win, because that's their only ticket out of the flavelas (ghettos). I'm training now with two college guys who came from Gracie Barra in Rio and they told me self-defense is close to non-existent. The reason being, the Brazilians feel rolling better prepares them for such encounters. Also, vale tudo is sufficient for street... Not my words, but theirs.

Indeed good post.

[JkD187]

Originally Posted by covaliufan

Perhaps, but many, many bjj schools are affiliated with mma schools or kickboxing schools.

That is very true.....however the gracie jiu-jitsu self defense tech are different from mma...they are basically scenarios and how to defend grabs and chokes and weapons.Helio likes to say you dont really know GJJ unless you can get out of the "bouncers headlock" and "rapist strangle hold" im sure Helio def statred some shit in his early days which lead to the emphasis of the Bouncer hold.

[danfaggella]

JkD was right, I was saying that the average BJJ joint in the US (and aparently in brazil, which is surprising because i thought they would integrate carlos' full spectrum of the art in the native land) does not include the BJJ techniques not used in submission tournaments. At all the places I have been to there isn't any striking in BJJ, though some places do integrate some MT or something, but it is unlikely that carlos gracie's full GJJ art was the same as submission grappling/MT (sportive MMA).

PS:
Yes I train with Mat Santos in Cranston RI and sometimes Tim Burrill up in providence, which is always awsome but is quite a drive.

[Spanner]

Originally Posted by pstevens

Actually, they train even less self-defense in Brazil... In Brazil, the purpose of BJJ has shifted to almost 100% sport. The reason is simple - sport BJJ represents a valued enterprise and venue.

True, but bear in mind that it costs 140 Reals per month to train at Gracie Barra, but the minimum wage in Brazil is 240 reals per month (£45; $71).

JJ clubs in favellas are struggling to survive to to lack of funds. If you're interested in Jiu jitsu clubs in favellas, you might want to look at the following:

-A charity that runs a club --> http://www.rocinhaproject.com/

-Blog of someone who visited a club in Rocinha --> http://www.elbruto.net/news.php#Sao%20Paulo%20and%20stuff!

[Shoot]

I think the question has to do with what is effective for self defense. I’d like to clarify or add to what I posted above. I don’t think for self defense learning the entire art of BJJ is nec. If you have an abundance of time or are just interested in being supreme at pure grappling, then go for it. If you just want to be able to defend yourself and carry yourself in a fight, then very little BJJ need be learned. Just the very basics. Most importantly is positional escapes, including how to get out of the guard and how to pass the guard. Submission escapes and prevention too (that’s simple once you know what’s out there).

Ground:

Know the positions, escapes, sweeps/reversals, and a few submissions, namely the triangle, arm triangle, and figure 4 arm locks. Know how to get up from grounded position. That’s all you need. Anything more and you’re training for a grappling competition, not the street.

Standing/Striking.
Head butt: this is a must that can be used on the ground too.
Hand strikes: straight punches/palm strikes, chin jab, edge hand blow/hammer fist.
Elbows.
Knees (learn to clinch the head with this).
Kicks-- I don’t advocate kicking hardly at all. I don’t advocate even the MT round kick. I think it invites a rush and takedown. You trade a bruise on your opponent’s leg for a major loss in balance and offer of susceptibility for a takedown. It makes some sense in a ring, but not on the street. Plus it requires room not to mention it takes up training time. I like a front snap kick for distraction. I like stomps and MAYBE a low side kick to the knee/shin if you use it to close the gap.
Strike defenses: Elbow block, Knee block. Hand parries. Bob, weave.

Standing Grappling:

Learn the head on chest clinch, head behind clinch. Sprawl, Overcome sprawl. Learn the double and single leg. I don’t advocate rushing an opponent for a tackle in self defense most of the time, but you should be familiar with rushes because next to windmill punches and headlocks, rushes are the most likely offensive move by an opponent. For take downs I like the head takedown from the head clinch (MT clinch). For takedowns I prefer to not go down with the opponent. Tackles take you down with the guy you’re tackling. Throws put him down without you, but are difficult and require room and tons of training time. Grabbing the guy’s head, throwing some strikes, such as knees, and then pushing and pulling his head to the ground works well. Learn how to escape the headlock.

That’s it. Simple. Simplicity is key. You don’t need to know spider guard, 5 different kicks. I don’t think knowing body blows, hooks and uppercuts are even that important. Straight punches are the most commonly used and most commonly landed punches. Circular strikes cause a loss in balance.

[JkD187]

Originally Posted by Shoot

I think the question has to do with what is effective for self defense. I’d like to clarify or add to what I posted above. I don’t think for self defense learning the entire art of BJJ is nec. If you have an abundance of time or are just interested in being supreme at pure grappling, then go for it. If you just want to be able to defend yourself and carry yourself in a fight, then very little BJJ need be learned. Just the very basics. Most importantly is positional escapes, including how to get out of the guard and how to pass the guard. Submission escapes and prevention too (that’s simple once you know what’s out there).

Ground:

Know the positions, escapes, sweeps/reversals, and a few submissions, namely the triangle, arm triangle, and figure 4 arm locks. Know how to get up from grounded position. That’s all you need. Anything more and you’re training for a grappling competition, not the street.

Standing/Striking.
Head butt: this is a must that can be used on the ground too.
Hand strikes: straight punches/palm strikes, chin jab, edge hand blow/hammer fist.
Elbows.
Knees (learn to clinch the head with this).
Kicks-- I don’t advocate kicking hardly at all. I don’t advocate even the MT round kick. I think it invites a rush and takedown. You trade a bruise on your opponent’s leg for a major loss in balance and offer of susceptibility for a takedown. It makes some sense in a ring, but not on the street. Plus it requires room not to mention it takes up training time. I like a front snap kick for distraction. I like stomps and MAYBE a low side kick to the knee/shin if you use it to close the gap.
Strike defenses: Elbow block, Knee block. Hand parries. Bob, weave.

Standing Grappling:

Learn the head on chest clinch, head behind clinch. Sprawl, Overcome sprawl. Learn the double and single leg. I don’t advocate rushing an opponent for a tackle in self defense most of the time, but you should be familiar with rushes because next to windmill punches and headlocks, rushes are the most likely offensive move by an opponent. For take downs I like the head takedown from the head clinch (MT clinch). For takedowns I prefer to not go down with the opponent. Tackles take you down with the guy you’re tackling. Throws put him down without you, but are difficult and require room and tons of training time. Grabbing the guy’s head, throwing some strikes, such as knees, and then pushing and pulling his head to the ground works well. Learn how to escape the headlock.

That’s it. Simple. Simplicity is key. You don’t need to know spider guard, 5 different kicks. I don’t think knowing body blows, hooks and uppercuts are even that important. Straight punches are the most commonly used and most commonly landed punches. Circular strikes cause a loss in balance.

Good post however id just like to say one thing....if your going to take someone down in a streetfight do it greco style.....knees never touch the ground and theres no chance of getting sprawled on(hey you never know right?)Renzo Gracie got into a streetfight about a year ago and he shot in on the guy took him down and locked hm up...they were seperated and went there seperate ways.Renzo would up with a broken knee from shooting on concreate...this is why i advise greco style takedowns.

[danfaggella]

Yeah thats a problem with wrestlig takedowns IMO, not that they aren't effective in thier own right, I'm sure that in fights there have ben fine opportunities for ancle picks or high crotches, but greco is a bitmore suitable. Judo has some fine stuff as well, leg sweeps, arm throws, hip throws, all valid.

[Jiu Jitsu Monk]

I entirely agree on the takedown side. If in the street you are taking someone down, the last thing to hit the floor should be your knees. Remember the average guy in the street will have no idea what you are doing when you go for a take down and if you are well practised it should be a piece of cake. The average guy might get hold of your neck if you shoot in and leave it exposed. So learn counters to the guillotine stood up and on the ground.

Regarding what you need to know on the ground in a street fight. I would echo all of what was said above but would add - getting and keeping top mount, getting your opponent to turn over and rear naked choke them, protecting yourself from being punched and control when you have someone in your guard and escaping head lock on the ground. Your average knuckle head does not know much, but they may well instinctively head lock you.

Be aware though, passing the guard in a street fight is different from passing the guard when you opponent is a BJJ student and has a gi on. Really, all BJJ clubs “should” be able to teach very good street ground self-defence. However, the self-defence side has been lost to a degree in many clubs to be replaced by Sport Jiu Jitsu.

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by Jiu Jitsu Monk

Regarding what you need to know on the ground in a street fight. I would echo all of what was said above but would add - getting and keeping top mount, getting your opponent to turn over and rear naked choke them, protecting yourself from being punched and control when you have someone in your guard and escaping head lock on the ground. Your average knuckle head does not know much, but they may well instinctively head lock you.

You'd be surprised at what the average "knuckle-head" can accomplish in a state of rage.

Originally Posted by Jiu Jitsu Monk

Be aware though, passing the guard in a street fight is different from passing the guard when you opponent is a BJJ student and has a gi on. Really, all BJJ clubs “should” be able to teach very good street ground self-defence. However, the self-defence side has been lost to a degree in many clubs to be replaced by Sport Jiu Jitsu.

Yeah... That's true. For instance, the average street bum won't be pulling Guard. I disagree with your gi comment, however. I live in the Northeast and unless I'm at the beach, everyone is wearing thick clothing for year round.