Questions about BJJ & JJ

[spicy]

Hi everyone

Currently, I am researching different martial arts and systems in order to find one that is suitable to my wants (practical self-defense, fitness, and self confidence).
BJJ and JJ are among the sports that I am reading about yet there is something missing. What I read is that BJJ and JJ are great self-defense sports where they use different methods like grappling, throwing, striking and blocking. Yet, almost every set of pictures and video clips I saw were about 2 guys fighting/locking each other on the ground.

So my questions are this:
Where are the striking, blocking and throwing styles? What is the average percentage of striking, kicking and punching, and blocking is there in BJJ and JJ?
Can someone post some links for videos and pictures that discuss anything in BJJ and JJ other than fighting on the ground, so that I can verify what I am reading and see the striking and defending techniques?

Thanks

[danfaggella]

They are martial arts, though BJJ is in fact becoming quite a sport. In general, BJJ is the sportive form of jujutsu that resemble is the grappling possitions of judo/jujutsu, becuase it is based on those arts. From my knowledge, BJJ is about grappling, mostly on the ground. The takedowns in BJJ are no Gi (Gi is the martial arts "suit," worn in Judo and traditional Jujutsu). From where I come from, BJJ doesn't teach strikes, strikes are learned from other arts to suppliment BJJ (mostly Muay Thai Kickboxing, a monopolizing striking art in mixer martial arts). BJJ teaches SPORTIVE fighting, involving teachniques like chokes/submissions that can be used in sparring and in competition.

Traditional Jujutsu trains much differently. Traditional jujutsu will teach striking as well as plenty of moves you CANT use in sparring/competition, but should be known in real self-defence situations (like, preasure points attacks, eye attacks, throat attacks, groin attacks, ect...) Jujutsu involves a Gi, so many takedowns and attacks may involve the gi. Jujutsu training invovles Katas (look it up) for training. The jujutsu training is much more geared twords personal growth and self-defence, as well as katas, while BJJ is full-on about submissions, hardcore sweaty grappling, learning all the moves in a practical way. This is hard with jujutsu because they teach so many techniques that are needed in self-defence and not sport, and they think that grappling as BJJ people dow ill train you to be vulnerable when there are no rules (like in a real fight). I think that they should impliment some kind of sparring and friendly grappling while teaching the real-situation moves, but thats just me.

basically, BJJ will get you in shape and teach you sport grappling with no martial arts suit.

traditional jujutsu will emphisize katas, tradition, and dangerous techniques not to be used unless you need to defend yourself, and its generally done in a GI.

those are generalizations, but i tried to help you as much as i could!

ask anythign else?

[spicy]

danfaggella
Thanks for your informative reply. I appreciate it.
Let me recoup that. BJJ is more of a sport than self-defense while JJ qualify as a good practical self-defense system.
Last question, do you know of any links to JJ websites that carry multimedia resources showing Katas (I know the meaning), striking and hitting techniques? (video clips would be great)

Thanks in advance

[pstevens]

Originally Posted by spicy

danfaggella
Thanks for your informative reply. I appreciate it.
Let me recoup that. BJJ is more of a sport than self-defense while JJ qualify as a good practical self-defense system.
Last question, do you know of any links to JJ websites that carry multimedia resources showing Katas (I know the meaning), striking and hitting techniques? (video clips would be great)

Thanks in advance

If you want to learn self-defense, join an SD club. The JJJ approach is outdated and most of the techniques and methodology isn't worth it. I did JJJ for 3 yrs and it was crap. Think about it - all these JJ people have been passing these techniques down without ever applying them in live drills or situations. It's all hypothetical BS.

[sapatiero]

Danfagella makes some excellent points. I did JJJ for 6 years before starting BJJ, and have a couple of points to add...

- There are some JJJ clubs that have stepped away from the traditional syllabus, and have tried to strip out the less practical stuff. The best way to find out is to go to the club & see if they do things in a realistic way. If one student steps forward slowly, does a snails punch, and leaves his hand in the air for you to trap & throw him, go elsewhere. Look for somewhere where you have the freedom to discuss/question the techniques with an open minded sensei.

- A few BJJ schools (especially 'old school' BJJ) do teach practical self defense techniques. One example is the Gracie Academy in Torrence, CA. A portion of the beginners classes is always devoted to standup self defense, as handed down by Helio. If you're not interested in the sportive stuff, I'd avoid clubs like Gracie Barra who are great for learning tournament techniques, but don't do much self defense.

Either way, good luck & have fun.

[danfaggella]

I think there are some BS JJJ places, like there are some BS anything places. However, JJ is steriotypically a complete system, but they train in a not-so-practical way. Katas and training with a telegraphing opponent aren't enough, and if you want to defend yourself, sparring and submission grappling (or mix the 2 and get on some ultimate fighting) isn't really enough. It is great o spar and grapple, thats what I love, but to defend yourself you should know real self-defence techniques and when/how to aply them. In JJ you will learn all tha but its in a very lame manner in my oppinion. In BJJ you will get a full-on grappling routine where people will get bruised and a bit messed up, but thats the reality. Some of these JJ dudes think you can stand in a lame rigid stance and throw out one perfect chop or strike and end a fight, but its not like that at all, in the street or in the ring. Its important to stay fluid and open minded, find the kind of training that you think will fit the needs you listed earlier. This most likely means, TEST OUT EVERYTHING. I try to go and see every martial arts place around me and see what they use for technique, how they spar, how they do this, how they do that, how good the teachers are, ect... I would recomend BJJ for fitness and practicality but mix it with some JJ if you want some real street technique, they have plenty of that mean stuff. Both of these will boost confidence naturally.

I know of a site: www.bjj.net

Go under "techniques" and you will see a bunch of BJJ stuff, some Gi, some no Gi. It's pretty helpful for BJJ. As for JJ Katas, I don't know where to find them, maybe do a google search?

Good luck sifting through principle, technique, and training methods, my friend!

[OmaPlata]

just buy a gun and leave the fighting for the pro's

[JkD187]

The three major differences of BJJ and JJJ are as follows.

1.Techniques:The techniques of jjj are meant to be a complete system,Which means it includes strikes,grappling,throwing,controlling and arresting,weapons offense and defense,self defense,killing or crippling techniques,locks and so on and so forth.Most of these techniques require excellent fine motor functions which are hard to apply under pressure,i.e:threading a needle after running a mile,While the techniques of bjj are mostly takedowns and ground controling and finishing holds.Most bjj techniques are high percentage moves which use gross motor functions which are much easier to apply under pressure,i.e:running away from someone chasing you.

2.Training Method:This is where the two arts are really seperated in terms of effectiveness and realism.JJJ's training method is to train in kata's and one and two step sparring to learn combat moves in very telegraphed ways.There is no resistance on the other persons part and therefor no one gains functional skills in all areas of fighting but rather just an assortment of techniques for demo purposes.BJJ's training method is to train with an uncooperative opponent and sparring with someone who is actually traying to beat you as well.From this type of training under resistance...timing...energy and motion real skills that can be used under pressure are honed in battle fit weapons.

3.Stragety:JJJ's stragety is to go with the flow of combat,Your opponents move is your move,Counter whatever he brings to the table....however this is a very hard thing to do if you do not have the attributes for combat trained from resistance training which is why many people view JJJ as ineffective for this day and age.BJJ's stragety however is a systamitic approach that can be used in every battle...every time.The stragety is to bypass the striking range and go into the clinch range,From the clinch range look to take your opponent down and flow into a dominant position on the ground to apply strikes and the finishing hold to end the fight.The big difference in stragety is that most of the time going with the flow means you must be in a defensive mode which is not so good for self-defense,Also the self defense techniques of JJJ use scenarios in which you must execute technique after technique in a pattern to stop something just a simple punch.In real combat fights involve movement and it would be very hard to apply those techniques when a person is resiting and trying to hit you back.BJJ's stragety is to bypass the striking range by whatever way you can based on the situation,their is no set tecnique but rather just attributes like timing,speed and power.In the clinch range its the same takedown the opponent by using whatever is there....a hip toss...single leg...double leg etc etc.On the ground it is yet again the same look for whatever technique is open and take it to finish the fight,Nothing is ever telegraphed everything is based on science of simplicity and movement.

In conclusion JJJ can gain alot by the training method of BJJ by injecting realism in the art and BJJ can learn from JJJ's concept of the complete fighter....bolth can be deadly arts,all it depends on is how the art is trained...who it is trained under and how good the people training are.

[Shoot]

This is a very common type of question. First, when you want to talk self defense, you must talk weapons. The trend in MA right now is to be the “ultimate fighter.” But, if I told you that on such and such date six weeks from now a person was definitely going to come up to you at an unexpected time and try to kill you and I gave you the option of studying MMA or how to use a legally concealed weapon (ie. clip blade), which would you choose? When it comes to truly surviving, honor, fairness, and ego go out the window. Self defense means gaining the advantage over your enemy and using the environment to your advantage. So, 1. learn to defend against and to use weapons. Learn Kali or some other realistic weapon system. To me this is of utmost importance. Learn knife, stick, and pepper spray.

Second, you ask a valid question about hand to hand combat. First, you can’t always use a lethal weapon, such as a knife or you don’t have one. Which system should you go with? Is BJJ sport? Etc... This is debated all the time. JJ is a generic term. “Judo” used to be called JJ. There are many schools and styles of JJ. But, most JJ programs can be characterized by SPECIFIC techniques to deal with SPECIFIC scenario. “If he does this, I do this.” This is what we call rote rehearsal based martial arts. They rely on fine and sometimes elaborate motions on your part. The fact is that in a real life confrontation adrenaline will destroy your ability to use fine motor skills. You will only be capable of large, gross movements. That’s a physiological fact. There are other arts that rely on fine SPECIFIC techniques, such as “vital point striking” or arresting techniques like you see in Aikido. These are not useless, but they require lots of time and energy to master–and may be never mastered.

Many of the “deadly” arts, like JJ cannot be practiced at full speed against a resisting opponent for obvious reasons. My training partners and myself don’t collapse each other’s wind pipes, for example. So, you don’t get to really practice these arts in a situation that is similar to how a real fight feels. No matter how well you can act and try to respond like someone would “really respond,” it’s artificial. Second, these techniques actually can work, which means that all you learn is how to kill. That’s not always justified. If my drunk friend feels like fighting and I rip his throat out, that’s not good.

Then there’s the “take down” arts you inquired about. Judo is a good one. Aikido is a bad one. There are some traditional JJ schools that actually do useful takedowns and BTW use good self defense techniques. I divide take downs into two categories, “throws” and “takedowns” or “sacrifices” as they are known in Judo. Throws, such as hip throws as seen in Judo can end a fight in and of itself. They are extremely difficult though without the collar and elbow tie up. That means they’re hard to do in the real world. Western wrestling takedowns, (aka “tackles”) and takedowns from the clinch are easier and more natural. BJJ stresses these.

BJJ uses strikes. But in PURE BJJ strikes are used to set up something. E.g. a straight kick to the knee before closing the gap to clinch. Many self defense oriented people bash the idea of going to the ground and instead advise “ending it quickly with strikes.” That makes perfect sense in a preemptive strike situation (AKA “sucker punch”). But once the confrontation becomes an active fight (ie. a squared off street fight) striking is difficult. Everybody knows how to strike, parry, and block to some extent. If the person is athletic at all, then he can strike somewhat even without any formal training. It may be sloppy, but its good enough to decrease the odds that you will “end it quickly.” Also, guys who can’t strike well are more dangerous in some ways. They’re more likely to reach for a weapon out of desperation or tackle you as you dance around like Rocky.

BJJ is designed to end an active quickly. Distraction, close gap, clinch, take down, position, submission. Total time = 5 seconds or less. That’s the idea. No, I wouldn’t pull someone into my guard on the street. But, if someone does tackle you wouldn’t you rather be in the guard instead of under mount? You don’t have to stay there. BJJ is mostly trained by free sparring. That means you can do on your opponents what you would do in the real world and they will resist much like they would in the real world. That experience is invaluable.

What about multiple opponents? We hear this all the time. I hate to break it to you but your MT, boxing, karate, whatever is not going to make things much better for you against two men or more. First, once an active fight is on, it’s hard to land a strike. IMO it’s faster to take someone down and knock them out ASAP. Also, see weapon training above.

I would add that it is important to learn stand up striking. You won’t always want to go to the ground. I would supplement with MT. The reason is that MT will get you in shape, can be practiced through sparring and uses GROSS MOTOR movements. The movement in MT are simple and can be used when your heart is beating 180 BPM and your shaking with adrenaline. It teaches clinch fighting and strikes that don’t need a pinpoint target. E.g. elbow target = head. Knee target = anything you can hit with it. Get the idea. Once you lock someone into the MT clinch you can start chopping with these techniques without a very good aim. Add head butts too.

So, in sum. Train weapons, MT, and BJJ. That’s a complete system.

[sapatiero]

Originally Posted by Shoot

BJJ uses strikes. But in PURE BJJ strikes are used to set up something.

You make some great points, but I'm not sure about that... I think I understand what you're getting at in terms of the BJJ guys striking when they have to in Vale Tudo, but surely that's Muai Thai or boxing that's being added?

I've been taught by Royce, Rorion, Helio, Marcio Fetosa, Carlos Lemos and not once have they shown me a strike. Granted, they're gonna be needed in the real world, or in Vale Tudo - but surely that then becomes MMA and not pure BJJ?

Thoughts anyone?

[JkD187]

the original GJJ was nothing like what we saw in the ufc....it was pure od self defense...which included strikes...takedowns and throws....finishing holds....dirty tactics such as eye gouges and bites...groin atacks.....weapons defenses and so on and so forth.Helio himself dose not really like the ufc or the idea of mma....he belives all you need for self defense is GJJ and that all his sons are invincible(guess Saku didnt watch choke ) but he says that most of what is taught out there is all sport jiu-jitsu not real gracie jiu-jitsu.

[OmaPlata]

Originally Posted by sapatiero

You make some great points, but I'm not sure about that... I think I understand what you're getting at in terms of the BJJ guys striking when they have to in Vale Tudo, but surely that's Muai Thai or boxing that's being added?

I've been taught by Royce, Rorion, Helio, Marcio Fetosa, Carlos Lemos and not once have they shown me a strike. Granted, they're gonna be needed in the real world, or in Vale Tudo - but surely that then becomes MMA and not pure BJJ?

Thoughts anyone?

Ive trained with Fetosa a couple times. So good and so young still.
BJJ with strikes and no GI is Vale Tudo basically.

[jubaji]

Originally Posted by pstevens

If you want to learn self-defense, join an SD club. The JJJ approach is outdated and most of the techniques and methodology isn't worth it. I did JJJ for 3 yrs and it was crap. Think about it - all these JJ people have been passing these techniques down without ever applying them in live drills or situations. It's all hypothetical BS.

Doesn't that make you kinda stupid for doing it for 3 years?

[Spanner]

Originally Posted by pstevens

The JJJ approach is outdated and most of the techniques and methodology isn't worth it. I did JJJ for 3 yrs and it was crap. Think about it - all these JJ people have been passing these techniques down without ever applying them in live drills or situations. It's all hypothetical BS.

I have trained at a number of different JJJ clubs and found that there was a substantial variation between them. While some are very kata-based with lots of slow movements and escapes from wrist grabs, others encourage full contact sparring and allow people to go into throws and to the ground, almost like san shou competitions. Then there are a lot in between the two extremes.

Like anything else, it usually depends on the instructor as to what a club actually does, so you need to go and see for yourself. Any club worth their salt does free trial lessons or lets you watch.

[spicy]

Pstevens,
Thanks for the reply. I am researching Krav Maga and other self-defense systems (not arts)

Danfaggella
I think the link you mean is www.bjj.org It's cool, thanks

Omaplata
All right

JkD187
Ok, I got it now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Shoot
Thank you very much for this valuable and very informative post. I like specifics, and you gave them.